Why aren't all the XSEED PC titles on GOG.com

Discussion in 'Senran Kagura Series' started by the_importer, Aug 5, 2017.

  1. the_importer

    the_importer New Member

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    Although XSEED did put out a fair number of titles on GOG.com, it seems to be mainly of the same 2 series: Ys and Legend of Heroes. Where are the Senran Kagura titles, where's Akiba's Strip, Fate/Extella titles, etc.? These are all of Steam, so why not GOG?

    Does XSEED have the final word of the digital distributors, or is that reserved to the original Japanese developers (Marvelous for example)?

    Thank you
     
  2. Chaosblade77

    Chaosblade77 Well-Known Member

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    Their partners do have a say in it. So Falcom is fine with the games being released on GOG but others are not.
     
  3. the_importer

    the_importer New Member

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    Typical Japanese copyright paranoia I guess then. When will they learn that every PC game can be pirated and that they're just hurting their sales and paying customers with DRM?
     
  4. Cryrobinson

    Cryrobinson Active Member

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    Probably when they finally learn the PC market is as big and extensive as it is...
     
  5. the_importer

    the_importer New Member

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    True, computer gaming still isn't a big thing in Japan, let alone digital distribution.
     
  6. Cryrobinson

    Cryrobinson Active Member

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    I feel like it's catching on though, so stay positive!
     
  7. saldite

    saldite Most Incrediblest

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    I mean, you mention Japanese copyright paranoia, but it's not like the west is any better. A recent indie game I was looking forward to called 2Dark slapped Denuvo on their game on top of not releasing the DRM-free versions they were promising at the behest of the publisher.

    People in general I feel have a misguided idea of DRM, both for and against it.
     
  8. the_importer

    the_importer New Member

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    There's paranoia everywhere, but Japan is particularly big with copyright. Google it, makes great research material, you wouldn't believe the things that Japanese game companies have done in the past.
     
    saldite likes this.
  9. Discoceris

    Discoceris Member

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    And for good reason. Look at the amount of pirated anime (yes, fansub release is considered piracy) that is out there, despite the fact that we have a healthy amount of option available, including streaming. Same with music. Most of you who complain about this are the very ones that don't pay a single dime for any of the downloads that reside on your electronic devices/backup storage.
     
  10. the_importer

    the_importer New Member

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    1- Everything gets pirated, Japanese companies should get of it's high horses, they're not the only victims.

    2- Japan should learn that Steam is not 100% piracy proof, name me any game on Steam and I'll find you a cracked version. People who want to pirate PC games will pirate them, end of story, no DRM will prevent that. The only thing DRM does is prevent people like who have the disposable income to double dip for the PC version because out of the fear of the service no longer being in service in the future.
     
  11. Discoceris

    Discoceris Member

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    1. This to me sounds like a cop-out response and doesn't give any rational reasons. Therefore, I will respond with a churlish, "so what?"

    2. Again, another cop out response. Saying that banks will always get robbed, so therefore we don't need security at the bank, or that the FDIC shouldn't bother insuring the banks would seem like a dumb response. So apply that analogy here.
     
  12. the_importer

    the_importer New Member

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    The only cop-out answers here are form you mate. I'm quoting stuff from actual game developers and publishers. Also, your bank analogy fails big, it's much easier to steal digital stuff even with high DRM than it is to rob a bank with no security, be it for the only reason that if you're not willing to physically hurt someone, no one will cooperate with you and give you cash. Try again kid,
     
  13. nivora

    nivora Active Member

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    Importer your argument is pretty weak when it is based on repeating that everything will be pirated anyway. Pirates will find a way but that does not mean it should be easy to do.
     
  14. Discoceris

    Discoceris Member

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    1. You never provided any quotes, with sources, so if you're making this claim, the onus is on you.

    2. You claim that it's much easier to steal digital "stuff", yet it sounds like you have no actual knowledge of how DRM works, and how much effort it takes to get around it, or to actually crack it. There's a lot of people online that go around bragging how good they are, and they will always exaggerate their abilities. I never believed them, since I personally know people who can program, and who actively play a role in testing how to develop the tools necessary to either bypass or break digital security. The amount of time they spent to create these tools are never brought up by the "kiddie scripters" who go around bragging how good they are in doing something that they actually *never* did themselves.

    3. The bank robbery analogy is apt because the bank and their employees have been trained to always let the robbers have their way, because LIFE is more important. The robbers know this, and they know how to hit banks, and how to insure that they have time to flee the area. In the past year alone where I live there's been more than 2 dozen bank robberies. I'm sure in higher density areas and where crime is a problem, this occurs more often, and there's a good many robberies that go unsolved, because the entire financial infrastructure has decided that they can live with a small percent that is lost and will make it back by applying fees and charges on various banking transactions.

    Which is essentially what the gaming industry have decided to do, and have added DLCs to recoup those losses from piracy. But many other companies have decided not to do that, maybe either out of courtesy or of some belief that the software they sell to the players should be sold an an entire package, and not break it up into pieces and sold as an addition. You conveniently forget that part of the reason piracy hasn't destroyed the video game industry (yet) is the fact that there's still more people out there who are willing to foot a $60 bill than there are people who only want "free stuff". Essentially this is called subsidizing. With the anime industry, less and less people are willing to pay that price, and because of that, they're moving to streaming platforms. It still doesn't make them the money that they invested into the production, so they rely on merchandising and other ways to supplement that loss.

    Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft are essentially holding up the video game industry, because you need hardware to play the games, and most people will buy their software. Steam is a platform that is key to how the PC gaming scene is thriving. So, make the case for me, that without Steam and the "Big 3", that there will still be a viable video game industry.
     
  15. Chaosblade77

    Chaosblade77 Well-Known Member

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    Eh, importer is kind of right but I don't think he's making his point well.

    If GOG was that detrimental nobody would support it and they would have gone under a long time ago. XSEED has even said that the sales of their games on DRM-free platforms like GOG and Humble are much higher than most people assume. And DRM is a very slippery slope that very quickly discourages purchasing over pirating by giving the user a worse experience for their money than they could get for free. That's part of the reason Steam took off, despite requiring the client it was still less invasive and restrictive than alternatives from that era like SecuROM - who wants to spend $50 on a game they can only install 3-5 times ever with online checks when they can just pirate the game and never have any worries?

    Western developers and publishers largely understand this. Measures like Denuvo more often than not appease shareholders that don't understand you can't succeed by giving pirates a better experience than paying customers.

    Piracy will always exist no matter how much DRM you slap on a product. So it's important to find a balance that makes it inconvenient to pirate, but without inconveniencing your paying customers. That will vary from product to product, and in some cases the best solution is no DRM at all.
     
    PasokonDeacon likes this.
  16. the_importer

    the_importer New Member

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    Well happy new year everyone. Discoceris, I hope your lengthy post yesterday didn't interfere it to your new year eve's plan. I don't want to repeat too much of what Chaosblade77 already said, so I'll just go over the basics with your pre-established bullet points with what remains

    1- I don't need to provide any quotes when a) a 10 second google search would have given you plenty and b) you already know about these, you're a smart person who choose to play ignorant. I don't know if it's because you are part of the game industry, have stocks in them or if you're just a huge Steam worshiper, but fact of a matter is that anyone following the game industry knows this by now and you're just ignoring this fact because it's the best counter argument for your personal POV on the matter.

    2- Actually, I've been working as an IT for a software company for almost 10 years now. Sure, it's not video games, but the software does require a software activation via the Internet. As someone who takes care of the customer issues, I can tell you that we've wasted more time in technical support with people who either upgrade their computer, changed OS or HDD than someone who tried to install the same license in 2 computers to use them both at the same time. So ya, DRM is costing the company more money in customer support and causing more frustration with those said customers for something that only a hand full of, most of the time ignorant, customers will do.

    As for game pirating itself, you missed the point big time. While I'm no hacker myself, I've known a few growing up (that knowledge will remain confidential for obvious reasons) and I can tell you that most of them did purchase the games they cracked because they needed it in order to crack it in the first place. If those hackers just kept the hacks to themselves, game companies would give a damn since a) They purchased their games and b) They wouldn't be distributing their cracks. But this is not the world we live in, so when a game gets cracked, it gets released. My original point was not about how difficult a game was to crack, but about the end results.

    Let's take a new popular game that got released on both Steam and GOG, Cuphead. You can find pirated version of this game of course of both the Steam and GOG version. What's the difference? Well one of them requires you to run a patch and the other one doesn't. That's it, doesn't change the fact that they're both available and that a person who prefers Steam's interface will download the cracked Steam version.

    Now that we've established that they're no differences in a game having DRM or not for people who simply refuse to pay for a game, let's look at what it does for someone who's willing to pay for games, me as an example. I own close to 800 physical games on different retro and modern consoles. Although I've been into computers for over 2 decades, I've never been much into PC gaming (except for emulation prior to my game collecting). The main cause was hardware and how it was rapidly evolving and compatibility was always an issue. Today, gaming on computers is very different where it's rarely the question of “can my computer run this game?” but more like “how good will the game look on my computer?”.

    Even as a dedicated console gamer, I've started buying games on GOG mainly because there's more chances in 10 years that I'll have a working Windows PC where those games will run than finding a working used PS3 or PS4 that won't crap out on me after 6 months. And in that future 10 years, if GOG is no longer operating, I'll still be able to run those said games. In that same scenario, would I still be able to do the same thing with Steam games unless I resorted to piracy? PC gaming is the future, I know this, it's why Microsoft is so focused on XBOX One and PC cross purchasing, but if PC gaming wants my business, I need to make sure that my purchases are not tied to some online services that can be taken down at any moment in time. Oh and please, don't into that “Gabe Newell said that he's find a way for Steam games to work with an offline installation” crap. He never said that, he can't legally say that because that would imply releasing his own cracks for Steam games and that would make some publishers pull out their games.

    3- Again, you missed the point completely with the bank robbery just like you did for game hackers. It's not about the victims of the robbery, but about the robber itself? Why doesn't everyone go and rob banks in a first world country? Well because the vast majority of people have respect for their fellow man, because they have empathy and a conscience, people who rob banks don't. As someone who pirated PC games, music and movies in the past just like I'm 99.9% sure that everyone here did (don't you didn't, your shit stinks just like everybody else) I'll fully admit that I would never have what it take to rob a bank.

    As for the DLC part, please, I don't want to go into Jim Sterling territories here, but that is some serious bullshit. Publishers are opting for DLC and micro transactions because they can. Piracy is as old as PC gaming itself and they didn't do that even when Internet was widely available. DLC and micro transactions are not a way to combat piracy, they're just the natural evolution of expansion packs which themselves, were just another way to milk more cash out of an established game with less works than making a full blown sequel.

    As for your anime analogy, it doesn't hold too much water. Boxed anime sets are still being made and sold for collector and people who just want to stream on Crunchyroll or Funimation will pay their monthly services. Streaming services are just rental services, the replacement of Blockbusters. You never rented a game back in the days thinking that you owned did you? Games maybe a form of media, it's really not the same concept as movies and TV shows.

    Also, as stated before, piracy as been there as long as there as been PC gaming (well probably not when they used carts instead of floppy disks or cassettes, but I digress) and yet, PC gaming is alive and doing very well. Ironically, what could kill PC gaming or gaming in general is those big companies trying nickle and dime their customers after they've already paid their $60. We've already seen this with EA's recent Star Wars games and it looks like it will become a trend now to call out bullshit like this.

    As for your last comment, it's plain stupid and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If I remove Disney, SONY, Warner and all of the other big movie studios, do we still have a viable movie market?
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  17. Ringwraith

    Ringwraith Well-Known Member

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    You can never "beat" piracy, it's also not a 1:1 lost sale.
    How you compete with piracy is by offering a better service.
    The "Japanese" adjective is not necessary in this instance, it's most big companies in general.
     
  18. matrich99

    matrich99 Member

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    First of all, I really don't care what platform it is on but understand if people prefer GOG over Steam.

    The thing about piracy is it really doesn't matter if the company doesn't want it to be pirated, it will be. I think a big advantage that steam has is the fact it has a background DRM which gives some security. I laugh when people talk about security as someone who has done cybersecurity nothing is safe when it is digital. But the reason people use Virus protection and you have a pin on your bank account it stops you from worrying about it. If I develop games for a digital platform I would prefer one that has some kind of digital gate visible or invisible making it harder on those who wish to break it has one more hurdle to get over. DRM is on the way out do to services like Steam, Origin and the others because of the hidden DRM makes it easier on the player and gives developers and publisher ease of mind. And when you get to the core root of why DRM exists is that the piece of mind aspect.

    I use steam almost exclusively just because it is easier. And in some ways the fact that GOG doesn't have some kind of launcher makes me forget I have like 20 some odd games that I never even see. Yes, it would be cool to see the games on there but since I have already bought SKSV and Valkire Drive(which I know isn't XSeed) and will buy SKBA I really don't care that much if they make it to GOG.

    Just because the issue started with the DRM free thing doesn't mean that is the only reason it didn't make it to GOG. As a whole, they could have seen it doing well on Steam and decided not to go further with the GOG route. I am not sure sales wise how well the YS series or the others have done comparison wise but I am guessing steam sells well over the GOG numbers and some the Developers working on the DRM-free thing might have felt it was not worth the effort to create it. It's not like Senran Kagura sells in the AAA numbers to be something to spend a lot of man hours making sure something can be sold on another platform when the one it is on is doing well.

    We are talking about Marvelous here not XSeed. If it was up to XSeed it would be on GOG and asap but we as a whole don't know what happens behind the scenes. Marvelous could have seen it either taking to long or not a problem they wanted to deal with and dropped the endeavor entirely.

    Steam, on the other hand, isn't disappearing anytime soon so I really don't care. If it does it will be very public and I highly doubt Gabe, or whoever is in charge at Valve at the time it does, won't have some kind of solution for the games on its platform when it does.
     
  19. the_importer

    the_importer New Member

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    First of all, you should never use first of all unless you're really pissed at someone. Try “Before I begin” next time :)

    You're comparing apples and oranges here. As an IT, I do believe that Anti-Virus software do more harm than good since they break software and slow down performances. Also, by the time a big infection spreads on the Internet, they are never ready with the proper prevention, but that's a topic for another day. As for the bank account stuff, if we're taking about your bank card, well, even if someone had my pin number, that same person would need that said bank card to go along with it, which is pointless since people just clone your card nowadays anyway and make up their own pin numbers. This is why I use my bank card less than 25 times per year and only on like the same 2 ATM machines, credit cards all the way baby,

    GOG had a launcher for years now that you can use if you prefer using one: https://www.gog.com/galaxy

    I somehow doubt that any company would deny making more sells or that GOG would refuse publishing, so ya, DRM-Free is probably the biggest factor here since GOG is second to Steam in terms of digital distributor of PC games. A lot of new western indie games make it on GOG and those rarely sell in the AAA number, pretty sure Senran Kagura would hit better numbers.

    Very well aware of this, hence why I stated about Japanese copyright paranoia, which BTW Ringwraith if you're reading this, is a real thing. Did you enjoy renting games when you were younger? Well Japanese folks never did, been illegal in Japan since Nintendo came into power over there back in the 80'. Hell, in end of the 90' and the beginning of the 2000', Nintendo, SEGA, Capcom, SquareEnix and a few others, gathered in court to make it illegal to sell used games, used freaking games. If you have any imports for PS1 or Dreamcast games from that era, look in the back to see if there's a “No resale” logo on it. Obviously, that law got revoked before then mid-2000', but that was scary shit to know that Japanese game companies have that sort power.

    As I stated, Gabe can't do anything about it without providing hacks for the games themselves which would be illegal. Plus think about it, if Steam goes down, it would be for financial reasons, so why would they invest into doing anything like that if they're broke? Time to face the facts, you'd loose all of your games and that would be the end of it, just like when an MMO is taken offline.
     
  20. saldite

    saldite Most Incrediblest

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    I'm not going to go into the rest of your stuff, but I will comment on this statement here: GOG actually has in the past refused games, either due to them feeling they weren't up to snuff or indecent (GOG has a weird thing with some VNs). They've also been pretty bad about getting updates out for less popular games (The Real Texas, for example, had to be resubmitted by the dude who made it like three times in order to get the Linux version on their site, and updates were also equally as slow, with some taking weeks after the Steam release despite the dude submitting them at the same time). There was also some recent pissfit in the forums over a game not being allowed despite all the other dev's games being allowed because GOG thought it looked like a cheap mobile game, pissing off a lot of potential customers.

    Galaxy Client has made the potential for update issues being fixed a lot easier, though, but it seems like a lot of devs aren't quite as up to speed on it since they consider GOG a secondary platform.
     

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