Localization Scares

Discussion in 'Mostly Harmless (Serious Discussion)' started by Dancougar, Dec 6, 2015.

  1. Ringwraith

    Ringwraith Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's such a succinct example of people flying off the handle incorrectly, for a number of reasons.
    Firstly, the developers took the criticism on board and decided to change it. It was very civil.
    Second, Jim Sterling wasn't really involved, just mostly said Laura Kate Dale was probably a good person to listen to.
    Third, she probably knows what she's talking about, as she's trans, at least one person tried to pull "don't try and speak for us" card and had that shot down beautifully, clearly ignorant of that fact.
     
  2. Dancougar

    Dancougar New Member

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    I know several trans people who openly call themselves trannies lmao. Some even found the term humorous the game was obviously in jest.

    You are acting like one person speaks for the whole just because they represent a group I'm black and I think Black lives matters are a bunch of riot enabling street blocking idiots and swindlers. The same seems to be apparent with Dale and anyone in the trans community with bigger problems. Honestly idiots like Dale make them look like weaklings and histrionics trying to say they represent the views of all trans people.


    [​IMG]


    >You need an affirmative action hire

    Is this honestly what you would consider a good person to listen to?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpJxGVOF9rQ

    And sterling did this to status signal
     
  3. Wyrdwad

    Wyrdwad Administrator Staff Member

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    I actually have no idea what NPR stands for. I've confirmed that that IS the name of the service, but I've only ever heard the acronym used, and can't seem to find any info on what it's short for anywhere.

    To be fair, she was probably right. Those tweets weren't threatening anything, they were just like, "Hey, if you don't change your name, there's a good chance you're going to get a LOT of crap from people later on." And I'm almost certain they would've -- we did, and we used the far less offensive term "trap" in Akiba's Trip as part of a side-story section, in what was a blatantly obvious moment of social satire. If people mercilessly slammed us for that (which they did), then I guarantee you they would've mercilessly slammed them for using something much worse.

    If this were a case of someone saying "Change it or I cut myself!" or something, then I might agree with you. But those tweets were entirely civil, and there's really no problem at all with someone giving feedback and advice to a developer on something that's important to them on a personal level. And that particular bit of advice is something I think even I would've given. It's good advice all around.

    -Tom
     
  4. Chaosblade77

    Chaosblade77 Well-Known Member

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    I assume you mean NPD. NPR is National Public Radio :p
     
  5. Wyrdwad

    Wyrdwad Administrator Staff Member

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    Dammit! I knew something didn't look right there. Heheh.

    That also explains why I couldn't find any information on what the acronym stood for!

    Now that I'm NOT being an idiot, here's the NPD website:

    https://www.npd.com/...al/npd/us/home/

    ...And apparently, the acronym is short for "National Purchase Diary," which I never knew until right now.

    (It should be noted, though, that NPD only tracks physical sales. To my knowledge, NOTHING tracks digital sales. Not accurately, anyway.)

    -Tom
     
  6. Chaosblade77

    Chaosblade77 Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember if they make estimations for them or not.

    Their physical data is polled directly from retailers and extrapolated to cover retailers they don't work with. As of several years ago when they got Walmart (the biggest seller of games in the country) I think they have all the large stores/chains reporting.
     
  7. Wyrdwad

    Wyrdwad Administrator Staff Member

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    They really couldn't make estimations for digital sales, as no digital storefront that services the U.S. gives out any sales data whatsoever, and all transactions occur behind the scenes. The best any service would be able to do would be to extrapolate from ratings, but that's almost guaranteed to be completely inaccurate.

    As noted above, though, NPD is pretty on-point with their numbers. They're never right on the money, but they're generally really, really close.

    -Tom
     
  8. Ringwraith

    Ringwraith Well-Known Member

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    Seconding Mr Wyrdwad's word mostly, but also it's one of those things people whom it describes can use it, but other people cannot.
    This is not exactly an uncommon thing with many 'traditionally'-offensive terms.
     
  9. Wyrdwad

    Wyrdwad Administrator Staff Member

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    I don't entirely agree with THAT, actually. I feel that anyone can use it if they want to -- they just have to be prepared to be able to successfully justify its use, or get a LOT of bad press (like, a crippling amount).

    If the usage of that term were justified by the context of the game (as social satire or what-not), I think society would judge it accordingly, even if some people spoke up against it. The fact that the developers backed down when they did, however, tells me that they didn't feel they could justify its use and decided it wasn't worth the inevitable backlash.

    Which was probably a smart decision on their part.

    -Tom
     
  10. Ringwraith

    Ringwraith Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah, not saying it's a complete absolute, but I meant in general usage, you don't want to use it frivolously. Needs some thought put into it.
    There's quite a few words that are like that, you don't use them without damn good reason, or you are part of the label they refer to.
     
  11. Ryos

    Ryos Active Member

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    That's from episode 3. I honestly forgot about that scene since the other cuts were much more noticeable. I can't find any evidence of censorship in episode 2.


    Interesting observation on the ratings bit. ESRB can be odd at times with how ratings get assigned.
     
  12. Wyrdwad

    Wyrdwad Administrator Staff Member

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    I could swear Episode II had some censorship as well...

    -Tom
     
  13. Ryos

    Ryos Active Member

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    After looking some more, there was a scene censored in episode II. I don't remember that sticking out quite as much though and after tracking down the other version can see why:

    In the Japanese version, Albedo takes a gun and shoots his own head off. In the localized version, he uses a spell instead. In both scenes, blood splatters as it should. Not sure why a spell is considered less offensive than a gun, but apparently it is because people can use guns in real life!?! Considering Albedo later on, the localized version actually makes more sense, as I don't recall Albedo using a gun.
     
  14. Dancougar

    Dancougar New Member

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    I would agree with you slightly until I saw her attempting to strongarm the dev into hiring the kind of people she wanted for the sake of a quota "Hire a Trans consultant!". That rubs me wrong, especially her fearmongering of getting slammed by transexuals while most of the ones I know find the wailing by moral signalers to be more annoying. They got bigger problems then a game with an inflammatory title. Not to mention a trans friend of mine looked at the trap dramatics and they weren't even trans. I don't like it when one individual of my race like race pimps like Sharpton or Shaun King or Deray speak for me. What do you think Laura Kate Dale is for Trans people?

    Oh give me a break I'm black and i find blacks who get offended at the N-word to be more filtered then racists on the basis of the fact they find it acceptable to themselves. Keeping words on pedestals give them power and make people who get offended at words look weak and childish. I also find a bunch of people comparing my peoples own trials to people who were never enslaved and brutalized en mass annoying. Stop comparing thinking you are a different Gender to the race I was born as they not remotely comparable. Not getting into a womens bathroom =/= Jim crow laws.
     
  15. Wyrdwad

    Wyrdwad Administrator Staff Member

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    That was the one and only tweet that kind of rubbed me the wrong way, but I chalk that more up to ignorance than "strongarming." The idea of hiring a "consultant" to determine if your game is offensive or not is not only impractical, but also unnecessary -- any developer or publisher with a good head on their shoulders should be able to predict whether or not something will offend others and make a sound judgment about it. We kind of failed in that respect ourselves with the "trap" thing in Akiba's Trip, as we had absolutely no idea it would blow up the way it did -- but even if we'd known, I think we still would've run with it, as that particular localization choice was both apt and meant for social satire purposes, NOT to offend. And ultimately, everything comes back to intent. Some say "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"... but those people are idiots, because good intentions are literally EVERYTHING. ;)

    If people want to suggest the impractical hiring of a consultant, however, I see no reason not to let them. She didn't DEMAND it, after all -- she just suggested it.

    -Tom
     
  16. Dancougar

    Dancougar New Member

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    True but I find the people who claim people who get mad at dale and jims virtue signaling by singling out the game are deluded, not everyone has to like how they are suggesting it and a false equivalency with people calling for the name to be changed based off of one person claiming to speak for a group is dishonest in my honest opinion. Pressuring people to self censor with fearmongering is wrong no matter what and thats what it looks like to some people.

    On that trap incident

    I've been suicidally depressed before anyone willing to try to threaten to kill themselves over a game either is trying to get power over people with pity points or doesn't have long in this world to begin with. Take it from me when you want to die when you either talk to someone you TRUST about it if you want help or you don't. Not randomly threatening people over a damn video game over a word that hurts your feels.

    thanks for being so open
     
  17. Ringwraith

    Ringwraith Well-Known Member

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    It's jarring especially when the whole thing was so very civil.
    You can't do anything right, some people want to be outraged, at anything. Which is incredibly helpful.

    I mean, ideally you'd want to talk to someone who'd be in a better position than you to know what things are acceptable, not always the case obviously, but someone made an error, which was pointed out to them, and they took it on board and decided to make changes.
    This is how the system's meant to work, surely. No-one gets shouted at, or abused, or ganged-up on.
     
  18. GlennMagusHarvey

    GlennMagusHarvey New Member

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    This is the first time I've heard of this incident, so I'm going off what was posted here, but what Ringwraith says seems to be the most reasonable position.

    It may disappoint internet drama monkeys and people looking to be offended by reading intentions into others, though. :p
     
  19. Dancougar

    Dancougar New Member

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    [​IMG]


    Nah she was straight up intimidating the guy at this point. Damn good reason to be "outraged". Oh and did I forget to mention Laura hosts jims podcast? Its totally not a shakedown right?

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Ringwraith

    Ringwraith Well-Known Member

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    Although the person arguing completely misquoted a tweet back and used that one to back it up. That one itself was meant to be a forewarning as that video was already posted, which would've gone downhill for the developer very quickly if it got circulated around.
    But yeah, oh boy does it read like a threat by itself. Twitter is bad for this, especially lacking context.
     

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