Ask Us About Kiseki

Discussion in 'The Legend of Heroes Series' started by omgfloofy, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

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    I haven't really but that's a damned good idea. xD Let's see, Calvard and Duladel from Elantris have some parallels and neither really have been explored in-depth yet but there should be something there I can work with... ooh, I've got it, the indigenous Dula religions as parallels to Calvard's pre-Collapse civilization and Sept-Terrion! <starts scribbling furiously>
     
  2. Trails of Persona

    Trails of Persona Active Member

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    Yesterday my friend and I finally wrapped up Sky 3rd and he's finally experienced the entire Sky trilogy. As much as I give him flak on certain opinions of the series, he's at least got enough taste to find 3rd as the best game. Everything from when you beat the final boss to the end credits is written so well it hit me like a ton of bricks just like the first time, and in some ways even more because of one particular character and knowing a bit of events of Crossbell.

    A month or so ago I found this video of someone who did an analysis of Renne's character arc, which was really well done. Every moment with her especially in 3rd is executed perfeclty. That moment in the end where she can't understand saying farewell with a smile, and her running off after quietly muttering she loves Estelle and Josh just hits me in the gut. However, after seeing that video and seeing the ending again there is something that really got me that just shows how amazing Falcom is at writing.

    After Estelle tells Renne that she wants her to be part of her family, Renne says she will just keep running and running. Estelle replies she's fine with that, but warns Renne she is bad at knowing when to call it quits, and will find and catch her. By itself it's just a nice way to show how Estelle is motivated to help Renne even when she is still unsure of what to do. However, after seeing that YouTube video and seeing the scene where Estelle and Josh finally meet up with Renne is Crossbell it takes on a whole different level.

    At the end of the game Renne comes and saves the group which includes Estelle and Josh using Pater Mater, and we at first see Renne being hesitant about being with Josh and Estelle. However, Pater Mater puts Renne down where Estelle slowly walks up and hugs her, with her saying "caught you". When I connect their last interaction with that the tears just started flowing out and gives such a powerful closing to her arc (even though there's a little more left in the next game). I can't wait to witness that part of the story with the Geofront translation.
     
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  3. AttentionDeficitGuy

    AttentionDeficitGuy Well-Known Member

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    Renne's final reunion with Estelle and Joshua at the end of Zero may well be my absolute favorite moment in the entire series. It's one of those storytelling moments that only gets better the more you look back on it.
     
  4. Wuolong

    Wuolong New Member

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    Another one of these tricky translation questions.
    During the confrontation of the SSS with Mariabell and Ian inside the Azure Tree, beside the mindblowing plot twist, Elie also engages Ian Grimmwood in a discussion about democracy. I have played the Chinese localization of Ao and also watched the english translation playthrough of the same scene and there is a discrepancy. In the english patch Ian says (roughly) that democracy inevitably devolves into a mobocracy (though Wikipedia tells me that Ochlocracy is the technically correct term). In the Chinese localization he says instead that democracy turns into 愚民政策, though Wikipedia again tells me that this is synonymous with 蒙昧主义, which is also how the Japanese Wikipedia article is titled, which means obscurantism. This is pretty funny, because if I were to translate 愚民政策 literally, it could either mean the governance/policy of foolish citizens or the policy of keeping/playing citizens for fools. It all hinges on 愚, which can mean foolish or being made a fool of.

    So what does the Japanese script actually say? I mean, this is a pretty crucial distinction and personally, I favor the playing citizens for fools meaning, considering that the overarching political plot of Ao is the formation and abolition of an indepedent Crossbell state that was built on a manipulated election.
     
  5. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh, those Ao plot twists. :D
    The Japanese uses 衆愚政治, which would be translated as Ochlocracy, so rule by 'the vulgar masses'. The Japanese consists of two words strung together so you can't read 愚 as 'making a fool of' once it's been combined with 衆. It's literally 'Government (by the) vulgar masses'. The surrounding conversation also makes it pretty obvious that Ian is discussing the potential dangers of a system being run by fools rather than a policy of playing the citizens for fools.
    Now for a really fun time, one of these same characters is involved in a conversation in CS4 that can be interpreted in several very different ways in Japanese with a much bigger impact depending on what was meant by a particular expression. Seeing how that gets officially localized is going to be a lot of fun.
     
  6. Wuolong

    Wuolong New Member

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    Wow, I didn't expect the Chinese localization to be wrong on this. Just shows how it always pays to double-check.
    To clarify, this ambiguity of 愚 I talked about doesn't really exist. In the same way that the meaning of 愚 is 'locked down' once it's combined with 衆, combining it with 民政策 makes it impossible to read it as anything else but playing citizens for fools. Translating each Kanji 'piece by piece' instead of adhering to the combination was me playing around, but it's of course a no-go when it comes to reading the characters faithfully. Oh, and guess how Ochloracy is called in Chinese? 眾愚政治.

    I can't help but like the Chinese mistranslation though. The correct translation makes more sense in the immediate context of the conversation, true. Obscurantism on the other hand is something that happens quite frequently throughout all the Kiseki Arcs. To quote wikipedia: 'In restricting knowledge to an elite ruling class of "the few", obscurantism is fundamentally anti-democratic, because its component anti-intellectualism and elitism exclude the people as intellectually unworthy of knowing the facts and truth about the government of their City-State'.

    Substitute City-State with nation and well...Richard's coup d'etat, the election fraud I already mentioned, everything surrounding Hamel, the Garrelia incident (and Erebonian media ommiting that the Railway guns shot first) as well as the trumped up charges (pun intended) of an Calvardian Spy assassinating the Emperor. And I speculate that the shadow war between Erebonian and Calvardian intelligence agencies and the resulting collateral damage it caused in Crossbell is also one of these things that the citizens of the two superpowers aren't 'worthy' to know. To my best knowledge Ochlocracy hasn't been shown in the story, although the Calvard Arc might give us exactly that.

    Good thing there's a shipment of CS4 with my name on it coming from Hong Kong. Playing through the game will be a pain though, because the Chinese script uses traditional instead of simplified characters (Sony Taiwan) and I'm originally from mainland China.
     
  7. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

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    Mistranslation though it may be, it definitely could be applied to a lot of the goings-on in the series and I wouldn't disagree with any of those examples you cited or your speculation. And Calvard might just wind up doing what you expect. CS4 gives us a few things to think about there and no doubt Hajimari will drop a few more interesting bits of information.

    And on that note, speaking of different characters I'm absolutely positive that Falcom's decision to use 創 instead of 初 for the title is going to wind up being really important. There's too many juicy possible meanings for it to be a coincidence.
    Good luck with that! I know just enough about simplified Chinese to appreciate the distinction there.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
  8. AttentionDeficitGuy

    AttentionDeficitGuy Well-Known Member

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    And now for, in reddit terms, a "meta" question:

    With the forums closing, I'm gonna lose one of my only locations for general Kiseki discussion (mainly with this thread). So I figure this is as good a place as any to ask: is there a similarly active, similarly chill place to read and discuss the series elsewhere? A Discord server, or an active fan forum or something?
     
  9. Wuolong

    Wuolong New Member

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    I looked 創 up to get the simplified character which is 创 and yeah... juicy doesn't even begin to cover it. Both can be translated as beginning, but while 初 is pretty neutral 創 definitely isn't. I'll just say that the Communist Revolutionary Army under Mao Zedong loved evoking this character and leave it at that.


    Wait what? The forums here are closing? Just when it was starting to feel cozy here... :(
    I can only speak for myself, but I'm also active at the spacebattle forum thread for LoH and I find it pretty chill there. Can't speak for the rest of spacebattle, because I haven't looked at other threads closely, though I've heard bad rumors. I looked into the Falcom Discord once, but I found myself overwhelmed. Not really my cup of tea.
     
  10. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, this remains the most chill location I've found dedicated to the series. Probably the best place after here would be the Falcom Discord server, which by default isn't so laid back (being Discord, stuff can easily get buried so a topic like this can't exist in the same way) but it's very active and the admin/mod staff are big series fans and generally do a good job keeping it civil. That would include floofy, who started this very topic. I've been there for a few years now

    For something like this topic in particular, I'll at least join the new XSEED channel to keep a link going and am always happy to chat via direct messages or if I'm pinged directly in a channel, though I'm likely to be more active on Falcom. floofy and Gu4n also have Curiouscat accounts where they answer questions on an individual basis, though that's more general than Kisek-specific... even if most of the questions do tend to be Falcom-centric. I should probably add an 'Ask Me About Falcom' page to Falcom Romancia too... wouldn't be a forum but at least it would be another avenue.


    Yeah, I don't know about specific uses in Chinese but there's a whole host of them in Japanese and any or all of them could be important. Rarely has the name of a Kiseki game gotten me so excited to find out what happens in it.
     
  11. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    Don't suppose you'd be willing to start a forum as part of your new falcom romantica site? We really do need somewhere to try and archive this thread.
     
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  12. Wuolong

    Wuolong New Member

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    It's less a specific use in a semantic sense, but more the political-historical context. As before, the character has a similar range of meanings in both languages if the dictionaries aren't lying. It's more how it was part of the political rhetoric to tear down an old social order to build a new one on top the ashes. Without having looked into Japanese historical texts, I wouldn't be surprised if this character and associated combinations were also used in political rhetoric by the groups that ushered the Meiji Restauration. The rest of my thought process was along the line of --> destruction/recreation --> ties to the symbolism of the snake that bites its tail --> who was on the key visual of Hajimari...
     
  13. Ghaleon

    Ghaleon Active Member

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    I hate to inflict duties on other people but this.
    I didn't know this forum was going kaput, that's very disconcerting!
     
  14. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

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    Well, it looks like there are a couple ways I can add forum-esque functionality on the site so I'll play around with them and see if I can get something up and running before the end of the month.
     
  15. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    Is anyone here on the XSEED discord? If so, could you ask if they'd be willing to give us a database dump of the topics? Or even of just this topic? Culled to remove the user table with the actually sensitive information, of course, but trying to archive a 200+page thread without that borders on the impractical.
     
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  16. Cold_Steel_IV

    Cold_Steel_IV Member

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    I asked for you. I'll let you know if there's a response.
     
  17. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    Thanks. I can handle getting the text out of the SQL dump if I can just get one.
     
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  18. Cold_Steel_IV

    Cold_Steel_IV Member

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    Floofy responded:

     
  19. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    Good to know. I knew floofy, yotaka, and co would not want to let their many hours of investment in this thread disappear. :p
     
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  20. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

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    This seems like a good time to mention something I've been working on... [​IMG]

    Still doing some testing on it before I open it up.
     
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