Ask Us About Kiseki

Discussion in 'The Legend of Heroes Series' started by omgfloofy, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. Velorien

    Velorien New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Thanks.

    I'm still not clear on the Phantasmal part. I thought Crossbell's role was just to fill Erebonia with pleroma flowers after the annexation to set up for the Great Twilight. Was there more to it? For that matter, why did the Hexen Clan have a spell for summoning the Infernal Castle?

    Separately, do we know anything about where cryptids come from, or why, or why it's an Erebonia-only phenomenon until the annexation (except for KeA summoning some inside the Azure Tree)?

    Edit: extra question. What do we know about Rean's ogre power and its origins? We know he's "mixed" due to Osborne's heart being transplanted by Ishmelga, but neither Osborne nor Ishmelga ever display anything remotely like it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  2. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,574
    1. Crossbell had its own Sept-Terrion named Demiourgos, associated with the element of Mirage, aka 'Phantom' aka the 'Phantasmal' half of Phantasmal Blaze. Ouroboros' plan involves all the Sept-Terrion in some way so working with the group that was already planning its resurrection fit with their goals nicely. They got Mariabell and Shirley as new members in the bargain and also got to test out the original versions of the three Aions. The appearance of the Azure Tree so close to Erebonia had as a secondary effect a massive burst of activity in the nearby septium veins, which made the summoning of the Infernal Castle possible.

    2. Cryptids also appear (and appeared first) in Crossbell. As they only appear when higher-dimensional shenanigans are going on, we can assume the only reason they didn't appear in Liberl at any point is because things never got that bad there... though there's some question just how different the 'Seventy Seven Devils' are from the cryptids so either way we got an early look at a similar if not identical phenomenon. Anyhow, cryptids are said to come from another plane and given the revelation at the end of CS4 we assume that they really come from Outside.

    3. Kondo mentioned in an interview that while McBurn and Rean are both 'mixed' that doesn't mean that what each of them is mixed with is the same thing. Rean is mixed (and specifically in his heart) because it's Osborne's heart which was touched by Ishmelga. Hence that's what he's mixed with and it interacted with Rean's untapped strength to give rise to his Ogre power. This seems to have been an effect in part of Rean being groomed as a backup vessel for Ishmelga if Osborne ever became unavailable for some reason. McBurn for his part is a fusion of two individuals, with his human appearance being that of the person he melded with when he arrived in Zemuria. Kondo wouldn't answer the question of whether this melding was an accident or of the human was in some way involved with McBurn's appearance in Zemuria. The reason for all of me is that his entire body is suffused with McBurn's Outside nature. TLDR: Rean's mixed with Ishmelga, McBurn's mixed with Divergent Laws on a whole other level but they exhibit some similar traits when expressing their natures.
     
    Cold_Steel_IV likes this.
  3. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Leman
    Though since we have yet to receive a proper explanation of if there are relations between the Divergent Laws and the origins of the Sept-Terrions, Rean and McBurn might still be mixed with the 'same' thing.
     
    Cold_Steel_IV likes this.
  4. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,574
    A fair point, we have Kondo's statement that they're not necessarily the same thing but that's not the same as a confirmation that they are different, given other unanswered questions.
     
    Cold_Steel_IV likes this.
  5. Velorien

    Velorien New Member

    Messages:
    27
    I remember Vita's line as "to use the Hollow Phantasm in Crossbell to awaken the Blaze in Erebonia". That makes me think there should be a direct causal connection between the events in Crossbell and in Erebonia, so that one was necessary as a setup for the other. That massive burst of activity from the Azure Tree was presumably part of that, since getting Testa-Rossa out of the Infernal Castle was a prerequisite for the Rivalry, but is that really all there is to it?
     
  6. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,574
    Insofar as it relates to the events of CS2, yes.
    However, remember that reviving Demiourgos was also an end unto itself. It had to happen first because that made Vita's plan for the Infernal Castle easier (otherwise she'd have needed some other way to cause such a huge disturbance in the septium veins) but that wasn't the only reason the Azure Tree had to be formed.

    On Testa-Rossa, her plan actually involved not waking it up (she only needed two Knights to fight each other) but its presence was unavoidable due to the Infernal Castle being the location where she tried to test her pseudo-Rivalry plan and it being sealed in that same location.
     
  7. Wuolong

    Wuolong New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    Trista
    Two little questions for those with insight into the original Japanese script
    1. Cold Steel 3 has a book with in-universe stats of Panzer Soldats detailing height, weight and material composition. The advanced models like the Spiegel and the Kestrel are made of a fictious alloy called 'Radiant Steel'. Now, is the 'Radiant' used in the book the same in Japanese as with Victor Arseid's moniker Radiant Blademaster?
    2. During the final chapter there's this little sidequest to duel Aurelia in Rean's Ogre form and after the player wins the duel, she talks about reaching 'True Greatness'. Juna, Kurt and Musse then talk about the meaning of the term which to me sounds suspiciously similar to the concept of 'Enlightenment' introduced by Loewe in SC2 and attributed to Cassius. Another example of localization inconsistency? Like the one with the 'Sacred Ground' beneath Heimdallr Cathedral instead of 'Primal Ground'?.
     
  8. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,574
    1. No, 'Radiant Steel' is actually written in katakana as such: 強化レディアントスチール. For reference, Victor's Radiant Blademaster title in Japanese is 光の剣匠 (lit 'Swordsmith of Light') so no connection there. As an aside, the stats given for the Soldats originally came from the book Sept Archive, which also provided like information for the Gordias series and the three Divine Knights that had appeared at the time of the book's publication. A couple details got changed since the CS3 stats refer to the second-generation Soldats while the Sept Archive stats refer to the ones seen in CS1/2.
    2. Yes, they're both attempts to translate the same word 理. It's one that doesn't have a single obvious meaning in English in the contexts in which Kiseki uses it. It also happens to be the word that's used in Divergent Laws (外の理) which gives you an idea how important context is and how it can mean very different things.
     
    Wuolong likes this.
  9. Velorien

    Velorien New Member

    Messages:
    27
    I just read the 2017 Kondo interview, and he says that the Aion experiments were unrelated to the restoration of Testa-Rossa. In that case, what did they have to do with the Phantasmal Blaze plan?

    Edit: A couple of questions about Ishmelga.

    1) Ishmelga was apparently turned into what it is by human ill will. What does that actually mean?

    2) How did Ishmelga steer the course of history the way it did while being a large chunk of sapient metal which apparently couldn't even use its power until it met Osborne?

    Edit 2:

    What was the connection between the Dark Dragon and the curse of Erebonia? Why did being tainted by the dragon's blood cause Argreus to absorb a large part of the curse?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  10. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,574
    On the Aions, as I've been saying Phantasmal Blaze is a two part operation that just happens to involve neighboring countries where doing one part of the plan benefits the other half. Therefore, things that happened during the Crossbell/Phantasmal part of the plan are sometimes relevant only to that part of the plan, or primarily to that part of it. The Aions were built to channel power from Azure Demiourgos in order to give them the boost needed to singlehandedly protect Crossbell for the month or so that would be needed for the final phases of the plan to fall into place after KeA's power was fully awakened. The Type-Alpha in particular made use of its borrowed power to destroy Garrelia Fortress without actually killing any of the soldiers stationed there. Ouroboros was using it as an opportunity to test their new machines in the field as well as to carry out their main purpose of letting Azure Demiourgos be restored and then see what 'Answer' mankind gave to it, like with Aureole.

    By the time they participated in the 'Blaze' half of the plan the Aions had mostly fulfilled their intended function so what we saw in CS3/4 was largely testing for its own sake, with Ouroboros seeing whether or not they could replicate the miraculous powers they had previously demonstrated even while channeling lesser sources of power from the septium veins. They ultimately succeeded with the Alpha II, which replicated the spatial manipulation powers of the original design for both teleporting itself/other objects and in erasing things from normal spacetime. Some of the data gathered was used in the actual Plan (the barriers generated to keep all but the 'right' people out of the Sanctums incorporated some information from the Aion tests as well as Mariabell's know-how) but for the most pwrt they were just being field-tested and in CS4 served as added muscle.

    1. Ishmelga was a corruption lurking in the power of the two fused Sept-Terrion, born from the malice of the conflict between the two kinships that had each held one of the individual treasures and which is impliedly the reason the titans kept fighting even after the two sides made peace and tried getting them to stop. That malice happened to express itself in the particular chunk of the Great One's divided power that became Ishmelga, the Ebon Knight.

    2. It couldn't use its full power until it had an Awakener but that's largely why the Curse was created, to manipulate events in order to bring about the eventual reformation of the Great One. Every single person influenced by the Curse acts in some way towards that goal, whether it be in the general sense of agitating for a war (a necessary condition for the Rivalries) or more specific things like Hamel and the attack on Osborne's home, which directly led to his being put in a position where he was forced to accept Ishmelga's offer. Basically, the Curse was what Ishmelga used to influence Erebonia while it couldn't act directly, then it used Osborne to carry out the rest of the steps needed, not realizing what the man was really planning.

    3. The dragon arose from the influence of the Curse and was acting as a sort of lesser vessel for spreading it around. Argres wasn't affected by the dragon (that was Testa-Rossa), he willingly absorbed the Curse into his body in order to contain it and prevent most of that power from affecting Erebonia at large. It helps to bear in mind that at the time the Great One's power was divided, none of the parties involved knew what was going to happen next. Argres realized how dangerous the Curse was and sacrificed himself to contain it, seriously slowing down Ishmelga's ability to influence Erebonia. He vanished around the same time that Zoro-Agruga appeared (ie, right when it became obvious that the Curse existed and was very dangerous) and Erebonia had to wait until someone could be found to take the thing on, which took about another hundred years until a worthy Awakener for a suitably powerful Knight could emerge. It's possible that other attempts were made before Hector succeeded but weren't recorded in the fragments of the Black Records that we're allowed to see, since we know the ones we get don't reveal everything. For example, the record describing the defeat of Orthros and the Vermillion Apocalypse does not mention that Lianne was an Awakener and used her Divine Knight in the final battle, though a record obtained in CS3 does reveal that fact.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  11. Wuolong

    Wuolong New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    Trista
    Thanks for the answers. Seeing it written in Japanese is pretty interesting, especially Victor's moniker. Considering his signature fighting style, the literal translation is pretty fitting if I think about it. As for the Sept Archive, that sounds like book I would like to own. I guess it's only available in Japanese though if at all?

    理 also has a multitude of meanings (mostly abstract concepts) in Chinese and I don't even want to start hazarding guesses how much or little overlap there is with how it's used in Japanese.
     
  12. Wuolong

    Wuolong New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    Trista
    A couple of questions about the Black Records.
    1. When Rean collects the books in Cold Steel 3, each volume has an entry that can be read immediately and an entry that becomes available once the volume is send to Rosine and she had some time to translate/decipher it. The in-game explanation didn't do much for me to understand the process - is there are text within the text, is part of the volume in plain text and another part in cipher, is Rean actually collecting two volumes each time he opens a chest with a Black Record?
    2. Who wrote the Black Records and why?
    3. Is there a special reason why these volumes just happen to land in Rean's lap? Or is it handwaved by him being the RPG-Protagonist?
     
  13. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,574
    Yeah, Sept Archive is Japanese-only. The only supplemental materials that are available in English (at least in a comprehensive form) are the CS1/2 drama cds which XSEED translated on their website, two artbooks covering the first five games which have only captions and no real textual content (and UDON managed to screw almost all of it up anyways...) and the Ring of Judgment interquel manga. I expect Falcom will eventually release some new Archive books now that the Erebonia arc is done, possibly several since they could easily do a 'first half/second half' split, given how much information the Crossbell and Sept Archive contained and how huge a book incorporating all of that would be if you tried to fit four games into a single volume. The only thing they might be waiting on is Hajimari, since it's going to wrap up some unresolved points from the games so they might want that to be out first.
    I did a bit of research into the Chinese meanings myself while trying to get a handle on the term the first time that Falcom brought it up in a big way (it was in Alternative Saga, where it was used to explain why all the characters were fighting each other) and yeah, there's significant overlap with how many ways it can be used in Japanese. Given that it got the character and associated concepts from Chinese in the first place, not too surprising. And doing as much research as I can (not knowing any Chinese) helped work out some of the other words Falcom has used which are clearly meant to call on Chinese concepts, like the various buffing Crafts incorporating 功 (most prominently right now, Qinggong from Valimar's moveset) since most characters in the series who use an Eastern-derived combat style have a buff inspired by that... and so does Sara for no immediately obvious reason other than 'badass fighter'.
    1. Uhhh... you don't. You'll acquire copies of the CS2 Black Records over the course of the game which can be read without needing to wait for Rosine to decipher them, but the new ones you obtain over the course of the game (the ones that are numbered) can't be read until Rosine finishes her work.
    2. Who wrote the Records and why is explained in CS4.
    3. There is, tied in with the explanation we get as to their origins in CS4. Some of it isn't stated explicitly but can be inferred.
     
    Wuolong likes this.
  14. Velorien

    Velorien New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Could you elaborate on your answer about the Black Records?
    I know that they're an artefact auto-generated by some mysterious observation system, but I don't remember a reason for their creation as such, or what they have to do with Rean personally.
     
  15. Velorien

    Velorien New Member

    Messages:
    27
    I should mention that I managed to dig up a Japanese interview in which Kondo states that the curse wasn't created by Ishmelga, but was the part of the Great One that the witches and gnomes hadn't been able to seal.

    Could you elaborate on the answer about the Black Records?
    I know that they're an artefact auto-generated by a mysterious observation system, but I didn't realise there was a specified cause, or a reason for Rean personally to receive them.

    Also,
    Do we know what previously unavailable power Ishmelga was able to unleash by getting an Awakener, apart from just having Osborne available to do its bidding?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  16. Wuolong

    Wuolong New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    Trista
    1. Ah, my bad. I only had a cursory glance over the CS2 books through the Kiseki Wiki (I'm still in the beginning of NG+), so I didn't realize CS3 simply copied them again.
    2 and 3. Then I simply have to wait for CS4 to arrive. And here we go again...
    Haven't played Alternative Saga yet though it might be worth it simply for being able to use Loewe. As for 功, what immediately comes to mind is 功夫 or Kungfu which is heavily associated with Asian martial arts in the mind of the western audience though in Chinese it simply means spending a lot of effort and time to hone any kind of skill. This of course includes martial-arts but also more 'mundane' skills like tea ceremony, calligraphy or fishing.
    Qinggong (軽功) is something that tripped me up at one point. The first time I encountered a Craft incorporating 功 was during Sky 3rd against Cassius, Qilingong, which pleasantly surprised and scared me in equal measure. I mean, seeing Chinese transliteration in a Japanese game isn't that common (and I haven't played Crossbell arc at that point), but having a boss like Cassius buff up his Str/Spd wasn't something I was prepared for. I then watched a Japanese playthrough of the Arios bossfight in Ao and saw him also use a Str/Spd selfbuff and assumed (without looking at the Kanjis) that this was a signature buff of Eight Leaves One Blade practitioners. That headcanon was challenged during the Vandyck/Beatrix bossfight when Mr Principal tosses out Qilingong and Xuanwugong, though I rationalized it by thinking that the game heavily implies Yun Ka-Fai and Vandyck to be old friends, so perhaps they swapped techniques. Then I started my Crossbell Arc playthrough with the Chinese localization and to my consternation Rixia also had 麒麟功 in her moveset, so my assumption got tossed out the window. When I reached Ao though and played Arios himself during the Prologue, I realized that while he had a Str/Spd selfbuff like everybody else I just mentioned, it was called 軽功 instead. I was left very confused.
    And Valimar also has Qinggong? Is this something that happens in CS4? I also wasn't aware Sara has any kind of 功 so I looked it up and well... 雷神功 reads a little different than 'Lightning Charge'. The things that get lost in translation...
     
  17. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,574
    The relationship between Ishmelga, the Great One and the curse is kind of screwy because in a sense they're all the same thing, with Ishmelga being a very large part of the Great One that actively expressed all the malice that afflicted the original two Sept-Terrion and wanted its freedom, but it didn't really become the Great One until the end of CS4 when all the power was unified again.

    As for why Rean gets the Black Records, the final volume has AZOTH wishing humanity success even though it can't see such an outcome itself. That hints that it might be arranging for Rean to find them because of the way the threads of causality are pointing to him (much like how KeA is able to help locate the Black Workshop by using her remaining Demiourgos-derived power), possibly making use of an agent.
    Beryl, let's say
    The way that the final volume reaches Rean is also so amazingly suspicious that it took me a couple seconds to stop staring blankly at the screen and a few minutes to stop laughing, the first time I saw it. There is definitely something going on there, to the point that floofy and I have standing 'I will eat this inedible thing' bets going if it turns out to have been a red herring this whole time.

    Not specifically no, just that it needed one and it was extremely picky about it.

    Yeah, like I said it shows up a lot. :D Spoil-tagged just because it's long:
    Valimar having Qinggong was actually only in CS1 (because afterwards the addition of EX Arts made it redundant) but it was probably the most prominent one, except I'd forgotten about Vandyck having two such moves. Zin also has two (龍神功 and 養命功) which I think would be Longshengong and Yangminggong if romanized. Given how many of these buffs there are, it's probably less that any one of them is a skill from a specific martial art and more that they're broadly known techniques from the East and various characters use whichever one(s) are appropriate to their individual styles. Crossbell Archive actually does state in one of its margin notes that Qilingong isn't from a specific school but is something anyone can learn to do with intense training. And like I said, while there's some rhyme and reason to who gets Crafts in kanji and who doesn't, there are exceptions like the Arseid School and Sara which aren't really justified by where their style originates so it ends up being 'Eh, because badass martial artist'. But yeah, there are little things like this which inevitably get lost in translation simply because there's no way to convey that kind of nuance aside from leaving any instance of kanji untranslated, at which point you lose the meaning and that sacrifices too much for the sake of the nuance.

    Fun little factoid: All the Taito practitioners play around with shared techniques. Angelica's Dragon Boost (written in katakana) is pretty much Zin's Longshengong, Kirika has a version of Zero Impact written in kanji (contrast Walter and Angelica who have the same move written in katakana), Angelica and Walter directly share Laser Bullet and Rin shares Zin's Longshengong and Thundergod Kick (雷神脚).
     
  18. Velorien

    Velorien New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Sorry, I guess my question wasn't clear enough: What exactly did Ishmelga get out of having an Awakener? It seemed to be doing perfectly well without one for 1200 years.
     
  19. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,574
    Like I said, we don't know exactly what Ishmelga needed/got from it in the short term. In the long term however the answer is pretty obvious: It needed an Awakener so it could participate in the final Rivalry, at which point it would either win (and the Great One is reformed) or it would lose (and the Great One is reformed and Ishmelga just switches vessels). Without an Awakener that's not possible, ergo an Awakener is absolutely necessary. It's effectively the same reason why Alberich went to the effort of resurrecting Crow and Rutger and why someone had to be found for El Prado; all seven need to fight or the entire thing is meaningless.
     
  20. Wuolong

    Wuolong New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    Trista
    I totally forgot about CS1 Valimar though seeing Rean being able to use the same move as Arios (while in Valimar) has pretty interesting implications. Always downplaying his own skills, the boy...as for the Taito practitioners, your romanization is spot on and while I was aware of some points you mentioned like Angelica's Dragon Force written in katakana or Rin having Longshengong I certainly didn't have the full picture and I never got the idea of checking Zin's Japanese Craft List so thanks for pointing it out. I really appreciate it. On the other hand, what a mess. o_O
    While we are talking about Taito users, did you ever wish for a Rin/Angelica scene? I mean, both woman share the distinction of being taught by Kilika and especially Rin seems to almost worship the ground her (former) master walks on. Given Angie's proclivities, but also them being fellow disciples, I think it would make for a really interesting dynamic.
    Another (perhaps) fun factoid: During the Infernal Castle section, when Makarov calls out Thomas on dropping his facade and Mr 2nd Dominion gives his advice, Mueller of all people tells the Thors students to breathe through their abdomen and gather their energy there. I don't know how this scene, especially Mueller's instruction, is conveyed in Japanese, but even in English it was enough to kill my immersion and send me on the floor laughing. That's because Mueller's instruction describes the most fundamental breathing technique in real life 内功 (and here we have the character again) and gathering the energy in the abdomen is a pretty clear reference to the 丹田(たんでん). Seeing elite officers of a Fantasy Prussian military and their proteges do what amounts to warm-up exercise in a real life Taichi class as a means to resist the mana siphoning of some eldritch construct... ended up being very surreal for me, but in a funny way. It was also a reminder that despite historical European influences being used as a template for Erebonia, the makers behind the games are still Japanese.
     

Share This Page