Ask Us About Kiseki

Discussion in 'The Legend of Heroes Series' started by omgfloofy, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

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    That was a terrible pun :p. But for a speculative answer to the question:
    Yeah, McBurn at the height of his powers is the only member of Ouroboros who we know might be a challenge for Ein and given his and Arianrhod's status as the top fighters (and McBurn bemoaning that he's had nobody worth sparring with since Loewe's death) it's hard to imagine anyone else who's currently a member of the Society who could be anywhere near him. Cassius with his attaining of enlightenment might be somewhere in the rough vicinity and in terms of raw power Roselia is likely to be the most powerful character around (and is effectively unkillable) but it's hard to imagine any circumstance that would bring those two into a fight.

    So that's about it for characters we know about. I'm pretty sure before the series ends we'll see some entities that would definitely be stronger (we've still got three Sept-Terrion and an unbroken track record of them being the arc bosses) and Aidios knows what sorts of madness we'll see from the Outside.

    George aka 'Copper Georg' is literally the only one we know of. It's mentioned that many of the Gnomes (and Hexen) abandoned their mission long ago and the last time we know of them as a coherent group was almost a thousand years ago.

    That said, in an interview Kondo mentioned that while only Alberich and George are seen, it would be quite impossible for only two people to run the Black Workshop so there should be others that we simply didn't see. It's possible that Hajimari will at least mention their existence if not show us some of them.
     
  2. Trails of Persona

    Trails of Persona Active Member

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    Didn't want to make a whole new thread for this one thing and wasn't sure which one to put it in so just wanted to post this little story here.

    My friend and I are getting through Sky 3rd before I help him through CS III and we are at the end game clean up before heading to the final area. Got 2 more moon doors before we can view the final door and decided this time around to level up people and do all three tournaments (yes, did the requirements to get that sword upgrade). I give my friend flak for not liking Olivier but he likes Estelle, Kloe, and Kevin a lot so I give him a pass since he's not a complete lost cause. Anyway, the story in the spoilers is going to be about Estelle and the final battle in the Nightmare arena. Can't do the story justice in how it played out but will attempt to give it.

    So the party consisted of Estelle, Olivier ( I controlled those two), Anelace and Renne. Since Cassius and Loewe go so fast and hit so hard Estelle was the main one attacking, while Olivier spammed Gaia shield. Renne was more of a back up healer and did some arte attacks while Anelace just kind of did her own thing (she's unfortunately very limited since getting her amazing weapon means she's nerfed for this battle). Cassius really had it out for his daughter and focused solely on her, outside of the two times he used Phoenix Wave to hit the whole field. Surprisingly he never used the attack that would usually hit the whole field no matter where he was, even if he was in a corner. Perhaps everyone was just out of range but that was nice because if he used that spamming Gaia shield would've been ineffective. So it was father versus daughter while Anelace took on Loewe's attacks until eventually Cassius was down. Right before Estelle took Cassius down Loewe had summoned his two clones so that was fun.

    Thankfully, once Cassius was down things become much more manageable. Loewe decided now was the time to focus on Estelle and she tanked the hits like a boss, but also at one point just started dodging like a boss. She also started landing critical hits with every single attack despite only the 20% chance. Things are looking good when it seems like Loewe is getting to where he's going to spam earth wall after using his S-craft on Estelle. I use an item to give Estelle all her CP back to use her S-craft to do as much damage as possible in hopes of making quick work of him even if he spams it. At this time Loewe had around 23K left and with damage output against him before he was probably going to have around 10k left. Well I guess Estelle was tired of Loewe's crap after from fighting him in the first two games, as she landed a critical Wheel of time landing almost 24K of damage, knocking him out and making the clones go away ending the fight. My friend and I are going crazy for the next few minutes in awe of everything she just did that fight. She was the MVP and once again cemented to us why she's the best protagonist.

    On a different note, she did not GAF about Walter in any fight against him. Outside an S-craft and one attack, he never landed a hit on her and he attacked her well over a few dozen times between the two battles you can have against him.
     
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  3. Ghaleon

    Ghaleon Active Member

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    I don't hate Olivier, and I do actually like him, but I do agree he is way more overrated than Estelle, who is in fact the best RPG protagonist ever =P. I mean she's basically a hero magnet, and no matter how many heroes she manginesses. it's not corny, that's just her in a believable way IMO.
     
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  4. Trails of Persona

    Trails of Persona Active Member

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    I like your comment on Estelle, she is hands down the best RPG protagonist. She's a bundle of optimism and one moment she's giving a pep talk to motivate a friend and the next moment committing Ultra Violence on the poor sap that pissed her off:cool:

    However, I can't approve of your Olivier comment. He can never be overrated in my eyes, same as Estelle. Though while I love Olivier I still put Estelle over him as my favorite character of the franchise. Does Olivier get more love compared to Estelle? From what I gathered Estelle is usually high in character polls but perhaps after Sky she fell off with not getting much if any spotlight in other games compared to newer characters.
     
  5. Kikki

    Kikki Active Member

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    I never particularly enjoyed Estelle, as characters go. She's too typical and predictable for me, I find her uninteresting, being just a big ball of 'try hard and be positive', like so many manga and anime protagonists. And though I didn't start out disliking her...I was just indifferent...the way the fandom wanted to RAM her down my throat started to turn me against her. Anytime I'm told I HAVE to like someone or something, to be a 'true fan' or whatever...I'll run in the opposite direction. And Trails fans were really obnoxious to me about it when I first started to encounter the fandom. :/

    I love Olivier, though (can't resist a character who makes me laugh) and I like Kloe. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  6. Ghaleon

    Ghaleon Active Member

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    Honestly. I see olivier is the best comments 10x more often than Estelle. Not sure what planet what you guys came from. Not exaggerating.
     
  7. Kikki

    Kikki Active Member

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    It seems like an exaggeration to say you don't know what planet we came from. It's Earth, btw. The only place humans are known to exist. :p Also, I always liked Olivier. Therefore, no one would ever have reason to try to shove him down my throat, the way they did with Estelle, whom I didn't particularly like. So obviously I'd only run into people who were aggressive about Estelle, not Olivier. For me it's just people saying 'Olivier is awesome', and me saying 'yeah, he's great', and that's the end of that conversation, before it jumps into lectures about why Estelle is the best and how it makes no sense for me not to love her. :/ I don't understand why so many Trails fans feel the need to try to force others to love the same things about the series as they do. If someone doesn't care about Olivier? Okay. No skin off my nose...I can like him all by myself. (Since Olivier is popular I don't have to like him all by myself, but as proof of this statement, I offer Exhibit A: my favourite Trails character is Rean.) But apparently that's not the stance of a lot of others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  8. AttentionDeficitGuy

    AttentionDeficitGuy Well-Known Member

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    You are fake fan if you don't acknowledge that (1) Valimar is best girl, (2) Ash x Shirley is best ship, (3) Mary is best protagonist, and (4) Faye from ZCF is the Grandmaster of Ouroboros. DON'T EVEN TALK TO ME IF YOU DON'T KNOW THESE THINGS TO BE TRUE!

    (for some of those I'm only half joking)
     
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  9. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

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    Actually, Valimar is Best Boy and Rean is Best Girl, Reanderella forever! And of course Sara is the Wicked Stepteacher who won't let him go to the ball. :D

    ...great, now I just started thinking of other crack fairy tale crossovers you could do with Kiseki characters. Fie as Sleeping Beauty who finally found the perfect napping spot and can only be awakened by True Love's Kiss (tm) with Princess Knight Laura, Nacht Weiss and the Seven Gnomes, Tita Russell and the Magic Orbal Lamp...
     
  10. Trails of Persona

    Trails of Persona Active Member

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    Now let me tell you why Estelle is the best and why you are wrong (kidding).

    Sucks you had to have that happen to you. Unfortunately, while I think that fans have good intentions when they are passionate about the series, many can easily go too far quickly. This could go even farther with how niche the series is. They see someone with a different opinion and want to give their reason and more likely than not come across as trying to shove their opinion. It's one thing if it was one or two people but when many do the same it quickly becomes a dog pile. Of course, I don't know you exact situation so it could've been people just being pricks.

    I can see how some see Estelle as just a tropey outgoing protagonist, especially around the time the games came out in the west. In anime and Manga, especially Shonen, you had a dime a dozen protagonists that are like that in a way. To me personally it comes down to execution and they nail it with Estelle but others it just may not click. In the end, doesn't actually bother me if someone else thinks otherwise. Heck, seen plenty of people who have played the Cold Steel games but will pass on the Sky games because they see them as ugly, and I seem to be one of the very few people who got hooked on the first Sky game immediately.
     
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  11. Kikki

    Kikki Active Member

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    Thanks :) (I myself am someone who thinks the Sky games are on the ugly side, since I don't like to see visible pixels, but I still played them because I wanted to experience the story. And I liked them, though I still prefer the Cold Steel games. But I find it easier to get invested in a game when it's appealing to the eye and also NOT from-the-sky perspective, which always makes me feel like I'm merely watching the story/world from a distance, rather than being IN it. The feeling of being inside the game world, right behind the characters, gets me at least partly invested right away. It's not a conscious decision...it's just the way my brain works, it seems.)

    I'm a prickly cranky person and can amply defend myself, so it's just an irritation, not a trauma or anything, heh, but it unfortunately turned my indifference for Estelle into dislike. People do start out by simply getting too enthusiastic about pushing their own opinion forward, but that's when it turns into them getting insulting about differing opinions and some devolving into gatekeeping, as though they're the one who gets to decide who the 'real' fans are depending on if they have the 'right' opinion on characters, plot points, etc. That's where the problem lay, for me. When it's just an exchange of opinion and not one person deeming themselves the judge of the merit of other opinions, it's all fine.

    ~

    I think arguments could be made for Valimar being best girl. Or boy. The voice is very masculine but he's a machine, so I think gender might be negotiable. Or optional.

    If Nacht Weiss and the Seven Gnomes becomes a thing, I hope that the Gnomes are all super irritating and drive Weiss crazy.
     
  12. AnimeGamer183

    AnimeGamer183 Well-Known Member

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    this. THIIIISSSSS. :confused:
     
  13. Velorien

    Velorien New Member

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    For the entirety of CS3 and 4, when graduates of Thors who don't have a clearly defined narrative role are mentioned, we're invariably told they're "gathering information." Is there anything more to this that I've missed, or is it just Falcom saying "we're fed up caring about the minor NPCs; just use your imagination"?
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  14. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, there are a few NPCs from CS1 and 2 who simply don't appear and we haven't been told anything about them in external sources. They may get referenced or even be seen in the upcoming Hajimari but we've no way of knowing for sure. It's probably safe to assume that like all the NPCs with their constantly running subplots, the Thors alumni have interesting stories to tell but for technical reasons the game simply didn't take the time to show us any of it. Kinda like how various NPCs from eastern Erebonia and the bits of Heimdallr that we don't see in CS3/4 must have carried on off-camera. We do know that Thoma at least has some very interesting stories to tell, since he's confirmed to appear in Hajimari.

    And no, you didn't miss anything with the weird visual effect Zector and others had in CS3, they didn't actually explain it. If it was just Zector I'd assume it was a unique feature it had, like Ordine's Boost Mode or El Prado's shield, but other Knights had it as well. It can't be a weird side-effect of those three Awakeners being undead, because the same effect is used for the Aion Type-Alpha II (which is unmanned) and for the Hercules squad. The most likely explanation seems to be that they're all incorporating the same stealth technology, though who originally developed it and how the other groups got their hands on it is an unanswerable question given that three independent factions all make use of it. We can add this to the pile of unanswered questions from the Erebonia games that Hajimari might answer for us.
     
  15. jumpyjunpeii

    jumpyjunpeii Member

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    I thought I saw Guan post on twitter that the whole stealth thing (for the Divine Knights, at least) was, according to Kondo in an interview, just some Gnome tech.
     
  16. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

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    Oooh, I hadn't seen that one but I went and found it. Apparently yes, in that instance it's correct.
    Though it was the Gnomes and the Hexen rather than just the former, apparently it was built in to each of the Knights from the beginning. Though that doesn't explain why the Aions and users of the RAMDA-model orbment have the exact same visual effect, while the Merkabah's optical camouflage and the spell Vita uses to hide the Pantagruel use two different effects for their own stealthy modes. That makes it look like the 'transparency with recurring patterns of rectangles' effect is supposed to represent the same system.
    Still, good spot there and at least answers one question.
     
  17. Velorien

    Velorien New Member

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    26
    Thanks. Something else I've been unable to figure out even after finishing CS4:
    What exactly was the Phantasmal Blaze plan, and what did Osborne mean about taking it from Ouroboros?
     
  18. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    Huh, surprised @Yotaka hasn't jumped on this yet, so I'll take a first crack.

    Broadly speaking, the PB plan was intended to neutralize the unified power of the Sept-Terrion of Blaze and Earth, aka the Great One. Based on the in-game lore, the only way to do this required unifying that power first, specifically the fragments split in between the different divine knights. The only way to properly do this requires participating in a specially triggered duel that can only occur with a massive war as the backdrop. Vita helped kick off the civil war to provide that backdrop, in the hope that its scale would be sufficient to allow for Valimar and Ordine to fight that special duel. That proved insufficient. Osborne also had similar intentions that require unifying and then neutralizing the Great One. His plans to do so were on a, grander scale, on the order of World War Zemuria, so the advancement of his plan is a defacto advancement of what Ouroboros wants as well, so he's "taking over" the plan by basically doing what Ouroboros wants done anyway.
     
  19. Ghaleon

    Ghaleon Active Member

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    regarding spoiler topic about Phantasm blaze plan.
    I became aware of this sometime between CS2 and 3's western release, or was it stated in CS3 itself? I forget. What I don't get is how/why Vita seems to think taking it 'back' from Osborne is what the Grandmaster wants. Does this get expanded on?
     
  20. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

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    Quite simply, it was Ouroboros' plan to revive the three Sept-Terrion from the regions of Crossbell (Demiourgos) and Erebonia (Ark Rouge/Lost Zem) and then observe what happened with them. Per the Grandmaster at the end of CS4, actually obtaining them wasn't the goal and all three being lost from the world was considered a good outcome. The name Phantasmal Blaze incorporates the two halves of the plan, with the Sept-Terrion of Mirage being the 'Phantasmal' half (which had to happen first to create the circumstances in which Infernal Castle could appear) while per an interview with Kondo the 'Blaze' half refers to an in-universe account of Erebonia's two treasures known as "The Legend of the Blaze' which collectively describes the Sept-Terrion of Fire and Earth.

    When Osborne announced that he was taking the plan from Ouroboros, what he meant was that he was going to be calling the shots and that he wanted the Sept-Terrion for his purposes rather than theirs. Osborne doesn't know what Ouroboros' ultimate goal is and didn't necessarily know at the time that what he wanted and what they wanted out of Phantasmal Blaze were ultimately the same thing, namely the elimination of Ishmelga. It's also worth pointing out that at the time he made that statement, Vita was trying to carry out her own version of the plan (trying to create pseudo-Rivalries, which didn't work) and also that Osborne had access to the Black Records which means he had a very good idea what he was doing and would have to do in order to carry out his goals.
    Caught me at a time when I was busy with Real Life stuff. xD
    The full details don't actually come out until CS4 but CS3 provides a lot more information than we had with just CS1/2. As for your followup question:
    The Grandmaster just wants Phantasmal Blaze to be carried out, exactly how it happens isn't as important. When the Anguis decided that working with Osborne rather than against him was the better option, that became the route the Society as a whole followed. Vita opposes it insofar as she'd hoped to find a less-risky solution (though her attempt didn't work and per Kondo wouldn't have resulted in the ultimate outcome even if her pseudo-Rivalry had succeeded) and because working with Osborne meant working with the Gnomes and she didn't like that idea at all for reasons that CS3 makes fairly clear and CS4 expands on.
     

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