Ask Us About Kiseki

Discussion in 'The Legend of Heroes Series' started by omgfloofy, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. jumpyjunpeii

    jumpyjunpeii Member

    Messages:
    173
    One thing I wasn't clear on, was what the final boss was. Was it Steel/The Great One? Having Ishmelga in its name was what was confusing me. Did Ishmelga fuse with Steel?
     
  2. Ghaleon

    Ghaleon Active Member

    Messages:
    723
    No answer, sorry for being greedy but I think it doesnt hurt to ask nice right? Anyway. New question less detailed regarding cs3 and 4 for all who know it. Does it delve into WHY exactly erebonia and calvard don't get along?
     
  3. nivora

    nivora Active Member

    Messages:
    635
    nothing specific, i just view it as a dick waving contest between two large entities and both putting a claim on crossbell
     
  4. Ringwraith

    Ringwraith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,778
    Contested borders between nations that don't get along are certainly nothing new.
     
  5. Cold_Steel_IV

    Cold_Steel_IV Member

    Messages:
    35
    I think they're both pretty busy with other things right now, so maybe they'll still answer your questions in the future. (I'm also pretty sure Yotaka's working on a review of CS IV, but it's most likely a spoiler-filled review like one he gave of CS III. But maybe once he's finished with that he'll be able to tell you what he thought of the games in a spoiler free way.)

    While I'm no Floofy or Yotaka, I'd like to try answering a couple of them, if you don't mind. And I'll try to be as spoiler free as possible, of course!

    CS III and IV are definitely longer than CS I and II! They are at least 100 hours long each. I've seen several people take between 120 and 130 hours to beat the games on just a first playthrough. They are the biggest and longest games in the series to date, that's for sure.

    There is much more series lore you learn in CS III and IV than in CS I and II. I would say CS III and IV definitely have many more intense moments in them, too. I don't know if I could be any more detailed without delving into some form of spoilers.

    I certainly do! Personally, I think Falcom goes through moments when they have to try new things or try and "reinvent" themselves, in a way, from time to time. And when they do this it sometimes takes awhile for them to get the hang of it or learn to perfect it. I feel that Falcom are now benefiting strongly from all the experimenting and hard work that went into their development during the time they were working on CS I, CSI, Tokyo Xanadu etc.. With Ys VIII and CS III and IV, I personally feel that Falcom are just getting into their next stretch of putting out top tier games. The fact that they're able to get out an Ys IX so fast and are able to make games as big and beautiful as CS III and IV, to me at least, means they have no where to go but up for right now. At least until the next big change comes along for the company, then they will probably need to adapt or change again, in a way, grow from there. At least this is how I feel about it. I'm not sure I managed to properly convey what I meant there, though. xD

    Hmm. For me I never felt they were "1-topic all the time" characters so I don't know how much you'd agree with me if I say they do develop more. There's definitely more development, but whether they develop in a way you would personally find satisfactory, I don't know.

    You have a lot more characters to choose from. CS III is a little more restrictive (similar to CS I), while CS IV has a lot more freedom (similar to CS II), but in both cases, I feel you have more options than with CS I and II.

    CS III and IV... go pretty dark in various ways. Though whether it's the darkest the series has gone is a bit subjective, I think, because there are different ways for something to be "dark". If you, for example, consider Star Door 15 to be the darkest moment in the series so far, I don't think CS III and IV will change that since there isn't anything... like "that" in those entries. That being said, CS III and IV have many of their own dark and depressing moments to them at times. On the other hand, unlike with a game like Trails in the Sky the 3rd, which tends to have a more constant depressing tone, CS III and IV also have various lighthearted and funny moments throughout them.

    This is another thing I think we'd disagree with since I never felt like it was quite like that in SC. xD But I get what you're asking. CS III and IV's villains have their own motives and reasons for doing things and for the most part they don't come off as blatantly evil for no reason, I would say.

    I love all 4 games, but CS III and IV are widely considered the better games and they are certainly my favorites. CS III is similar to CS I in that it is more rigidly structured with a focus on building up slowly while using a school setting again. I say "building up slowly" but perhaps that's the wrong way to word that. I always felt that every Trails Arc was more or less divided into 2 parts, the "build up" part, where they focus on world-building and introducing the cast and nation of the Arc and slowly developing the story and characters, and that "pay off" part, where all that build up from the first part pays off and allows the characters and story to have many great moments. The build up games would serve as an entry point into the series and the pay off games would push the main story of the series along.

    Outside of Trails in the Sky the 3rd, which is considered to be more of a "bridge game", the build up was usually the first game (FC, Zero), and the pay off the second (SC, Azure). With the Cold Steel games it ends up being a little harder to explain accurately how the Arc is divided, partially due to the Arc being much bigger and having more games in it, and partially due to how the Arc is structured. To put it simply, CS I and II make up the build up portion of the Arc, and CS III and IV make up the pay off portion. That being said, structurally CS I and II are in some ways a build up game and pay off game in themselves, and CS III and IV are another build up and pay off.

    CS III is definitely not an entry point and it starts tying greatly to the main story of the series and to the other previous games/Arcs in the series, but the game also spends time introducing new characters and places and it does sometimes focus on the world-building aspect. In that sense it is structured similarly to CS I, and likewise CS IV is structured somewhat similarly to CS II. CS IV is a lot more open and offers a lot more freedom (particularly in character selection) similarly to CS II. So CS III and IV are similar to CS I and II, but have way more character and plot moments and high points since they are a sort of pay off for the build up in CS I and II. So what I mean when I say CS III slowly builds up, I mean it in a more relative way. CS III has plenty of "big" moments.

    I think I remember you saying you tend to prefer the first game/build up portion of each Arc for the most part, like with you preferring FC to SC? If that's the case, I don't know which entries you'll prefer when it comes to CS I and II compared to CS III and IV, but it might be possible to know which out of CS III and IV you'll probably enjoy more depending on how you felt about CS I and II. If you prefer CS II to I, you'll probably like CS IV more than III, and if you liked CS I more than CS II, you'll probably enjoy CS III more than IV. CS III and IV are generally considered the "better" games compared to CS I and II, much like how SC is generally considered "better" than FC, but obviously how much someone likes a game or what a person thinks of one is more subjective. Since you prefer FC to SC, it's possible you'll prefer CS I and II to CS III and IV, I guess there's no real way to know until you've played them.

    Personally I never felt the Erebonia Arc or Cold Steel games were any weaker or inherently worse than Liberl Arc/Sky Trilogy. I feel that they are both great with a focus on different things. While I don't think the Erebonia Arc is "worse" than the Liberl Arc, I also don't feel that it is necessarily "better" either. I don't really know if it's even possible to objectively say if one were better than the other. I just think they are both equally great, but with a focus on different things. Different tropes used, different structures, different ways of going about character and plot develop. I mean, one could just look at the protagonists of each Arc and see that they are meant to be completely different types of characters. And I feel that whether one prefers one to another is simply up to taste and is subjective. Personally, I like Rean as a character a lot more than Estelle, not because I think he's necessarily the "better" character (though I don't think Estelle is inherently a "better" character either), but because they are simply very different characters and I prefer Rean's character and story for various reasons. My favorite entries are the Cold Steel ones because I really like the style they went with and the direction they went with the story and characters, and lore and world-building, and the setting and cast. For me, CS I was a very pleasant surprise and I almost think I enjoy it more than SC. I enjoyed CS II even more, and CS III even more, and CS IV even more than that.

    So I guess in short, CS III and IV are my favorite Trails games and, in my opinion, they are just as good as SC and Azure. And the Erebonia Arc is my favorite Arc so far and, in my opinion, it's just as good as the previous Arcs. But ultimately this is just how I feel about it and what I think of the games/Arc and everyone will feel differently. Despite this mostly being a post by a random fan and it undoubtedly not being as good as any post by Floofy or Yotaka would be, I hope this maybe proved helpful in some way. I think I rambled on a bit too long and I probably worded myself poorly. Apologies for the long reply.
     
  6. Ghaleon

    Ghaleon Active Member

    Messages:
    723
    TLDR (kidding).
    No seriously, thanks for the time, length doesn't bother me, I in fact appreciate it all the more because of it.

    Part of the reason why I was interested mostly in floofy/yotaka's response is that I feel they are very passionate fans who are very knowledgable who don't have the rose tinted sunglasses that such passionate fans of whatever normally have.
    I WANT to try AO/Azure, but I hear the fan translation is still pretty rocky and I don't want to potentially mar something I have high hopes for.

    Regarding the whole buildup/payoff thing. The reason why I like FC over SC isn't so much that I like 'build up's more than 'payoff's, but because I feel that the build up was masterfully done, but SC's payoff, w hile very enjoyable, didn't quite seem as well done to me. Due to the elements lacking which you don't agree with. It was a bit too formulaic as well, where the immediately noticeable 'weird' thing of the area just so happens to be an enforcer causing mischief, and said enforcer being a bit too fictionally evil rather than believably so. Blueblanc is a fun villain in other games, but in SC the way he goes on about crushing hope into despair and etc just sets my cheese-alarm in overdrive... Which is ok in most rpgs that aren't so damn well done, but trails was better than that, why did they have to go and make the baddies feel so fairy-tale-esque?

    Anyway, thanks again for the time, I did enjoy your response.
     
  7. AnimeGamer183

    AnimeGamer183 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,717
    All 5 localized Kiseki games are on the best sellers list on GOG right now!
     
  8. Ghaleon

    Ghaleon Active Member

    Messages:
    723
    I can't wait for CS3/4. someone please spoil me silly, questions likely involve CS1 and 2 spoilers

    1:
    given the images leaked for CS3/4, I assume Sharon quits being a maid and resumes being an enforcer. Does this action 'betray' Alisa? Or is it more complicated than that? In the end, is it evident if Sharon wishes Ill upon Alisa and her family, that she heartlessly lost all interest to her completely and just ignores their previous relationship? Or does she still have some kind of fondness/loyalty towards her?

    2: Does CS4 reveal any new info about the Grandmaster? If so, don't tell me directly, but of what nature? Their identiy? End motives? personality?

    3: minor tits sc spoiler
    Do we know if Estelle/Joshua's canon bracer rank is still B?Or are they A now? Is there a friendly rivalry between them and Sara for young Bracer hotshot status?

    4: I have a gripe about CS2, and would like to know if it's like this in CS3 and or 4 as well:
    The way every chapter early on ends with some fight where the cavalry arrives and rean has to summon Valimar to save the day like you're watching some kinda kids cartoon was pretty tiresome for me. I understand some people may not agree with my sentiment, can you objectively at least notice if the 'valimar, haalp' sequences are similar enough that I likely will find them equally juvenile in 3/4?

    5:
    is Alfin a playable character at all? If so, is it pretty much cameo only like 2? or more?

    6:
    does CS4 end like TiTS SC, where things seem happily ever after? Like CS2, where things seem mostly good but with some big unanswered questions looming just around the corner, or even more uncertain?

    7:
    osborne/jaeger king?/crow? cheating death. Do we learn how this happens in 3? how about 4?

    8: I listened to the music for 3/4 by that youtube channel with all Falcom music. 3 seemed good. But 4 honestly seemed weaker in comparison, is it just me?

    9:
    Do we learn what the big taboo that Vita did was yet exactly? If so what was it?
     
  9. nivora

    nivora Active Member

    Messages:
    635
    @Ghaleon

    1. it's a fleshed out thing with a lot of twists and turns
    2. yes it gives more information about them
    4. yes in some form though they dressed it up better
    5. no
    6. it ends well with a clear direction towards the future
    7. yes, more so in 4 than in 3
    8. it's the general consensus i think yes
    9. not that i recall
     
  10. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

    Messages:
    694
    Location:
    Leman
    2) Identity not in any meaningful sense, motive opens up more questions than answers, personality it's more a reinforcement of what has been previously seen than anything definitively new.
     
  11. Ghaleon

    Ghaleon Active Member

    Messages:
    723
    thanks guys. Too bad about 5, qq.

    I wonder if 8 was cuz they were 'rushing' cs4 given that 3 was supposed to be it, and they unexpectedly had to make another CS to wrap things up
     
  12. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,424
    Additional details to go with Nivora's answers, if you want more spoilers:
    1. This one is very complicated but yes, she still retains affection for the Reinfords despite the fact that she's (eventually) back to being a full-time Enforcer. After two games of dancing around the question, III explains her backstory in great detail and there's a lot that comes out of that which helps explain her actions. A more detailed answer would involve really big spoilers that you may or may not want, let me know.

    2. Let's just say that floofy was rendered a giggling idiot on her stream when we got our new info about the Grandmaster. Waaaaay more than anything we've had so far and yes, it includes her motivations in (deliberately) vague terms.

    3. Yes, the very beginning of IV has it mentioned that they're on the verge of being promoted to A-rank but they're not there yet. Meaning that as of the start of the game they're still canonically B-rank. It's a pretty sure bet that by the next time they appear they'll be A-rank.

    4. Sen III very much has the end-of-Chapter 'Valimar, save us!' scenes. There's a very good reason for it in the game, though it's not completely explained why the events that need Valimar's help are happening until IV.

    5. She's not playable, but she does get a Brave Order (a new mechanic for the games) which you can use on certain occasions.

    6. Errr... this is actually more complicated than you'd expect. xD But yes, it has a very definite ending that resolves most of the major questions surrounding the Erebonia arc, while also setting up some major lore for future arcs. It's also amazingly upbeat, considering that the first three games all end on cliffhangers or bittersweetly.

    7. We learn exactly how various characters have cheated death in IV but the mechanics behind it turns out to have been foreshadowed for a long time. Just... not in a way that anyone would really figure out beforehand.

    8. I do have some issues relating to the the music in both games but I think that IV was generally pretty good. There are a few songs that really benefit from context and there are also some big pieces that you won't find on the OST because they've been cribbed from previous albums and Falcom doesn't include them. I was actually cheering in IV when a certain song starts playing, one I've been waiting over a decade to make it into a game.

    9. It winds up being less that she broke a specific taboo and was expelled and more that she was chosen to be a 'Wandering Witch' who left the Hexen village to gather knowledge from the outside world (which is what Emma became as well) and she unexpectedly cut off contact one day and didn't return.

    On why Erebonia and Calvard don't get along, while most of it can be explained in simple geopolitics (they're the two biggest powers, they share a border and there are territories like Crossbell along that border they've fought over repeatedly) there is something else that we learn about Erebonia in III and IV that probably contributed at least a little bit. Nothing much, just a huge spoiler for the back half of the arc. :p

    Oh, and I saw that you were asking for me and others to give a review of the two games. I saw that and have been working on my big retrospective but I'll put together a shorter version in the next couple of days for you if you'd like.
     
    Cold_Steel_IV likes this.
  13. Ghaleon

    Ghaleon Active Member

    Messages:
    723
    Thanks. I'm still interested in a big review thing but only if you don't mind sparing the time. I mean I personally don't mind yacking my head off, so assuming you're the same way... Otherwise I wouldn't want to hog too much time from our largest knowledge bases in the community =P.
     
    Cold_Steel_IV likes this.
  14. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,424
    Hey, if you haven't yet figured out from my frequently long-winded posts that I love yacking my head off about Falcom things, I don't know what to say... ;)
     
    Cold_Steel_IV likes this.
  15. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

    Messages:
    694
    Location:
    Leman
    Now that you have emerged, got two questions of mine if you don't mind, @Yotaka

    1) Do we get an explanation of what the whole thing with Rutger is about? As in why he was chosen to become an awakener versus say his rival.

    2) What is the actual explanation for Ishmelga? I'm seeing two different lines that aren't necessarily contradictory but which are somewhat muddled. One is that it's some sort of manifestation of collective human malice, another that it's a foreign entity from beyond the veil sort of like McBurn.
     
  16. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,424
    1. Alberich manipulated things so that the battle took place near where Zector was sleeping, manipulated their emotions to push them to the fight (they weren't personal enemies beforehand) and then gave them the means to keep fighting for those three days and nights. After the battle, Alberich approached Xeno and Leonidas and made them the offer while implying that he could have gone to Red Constellation instead. However, it was much easier to convince Zephyr to take him up on the offer than it would have been to convince Sigmund and Shirley, so going to Zephyr first was the obvious strategem and Baldur was the backup. Alberich didn't expect they'd both kill each other but he could work around that. Rutger, not being an idiot, quickly figured out post-resurrection that Alberich set them up but went along anyways because it promised him a chance for one last fight, more time with his family and an opportunity to say goodbye to Fie.

    Broadly speaking, the reason Alberich picked those two in the first place is because Zector was previously piloted by a jaeger (not by Prince Lucius, as the text of the Black Records in CS2 seem to imply) and he needed its new Awakener to be one as well.

    2. It's the former, I'm not sure where the latter comes from since nothing in the game suggests that Ishmelga is from Outside. It's described as being a 'thought entity' born from the hatred produced by the conflict between the Kin of the Earth (later the Gnomes) and the Kin of the Blaze (later the Hexen Clan). That hatred prompted the two Sept-Terrion to continue fighting even after the two sides made peace, until they wound up merging into 'Steel', or more commonly the Great One. The circumstances surrounding its 'birth' and the conflicting natures of the two Sept-Terrion essenially locked it into a mindset based on conflict.
     
    Cold_Steel_IV likes this.
  17. jumpyjunpeii

    jumpyjunpeii Member

    Messages:
    173
    Just gonna repost this in case it was missed!

     
  18. Yotaka

    Yotaka Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,424
    Basically yes, Ishmelga is by the end more or less synonymous with Steel/the Great One, having possessed them. What we fight at the end is Ishmelga's consciousness with all its power (having just been reunited within Valimar after the Rivalry concluded) which Rean kicked out of his soul and forced to manifest in a physical body thanks to the power that Argres gave him. After the big ugly lug gets beaten down (and dear god, that fight was equal parts awesome and frustrating) Ishmelga is weakened to the point that Rean can permanantly destroy it. The Sept-Terrion that made up 'Steel' begin to fade from Zemuria afterwards but retain enough power before they go that they can bestow one last miracle apiece.
     
    Cold_Steel_IV likes this.
  19. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

    Messages:
    694
    Location:
    Leman
    One followup.

    Did Ishmelga have a specific desire to see the rivalry concluded and all of the powers held separate in the knights united?
     
  20. Trails of Persona

    Trails of Persona Active Member

    Messages:
    221
    Reading the spoilers, seems like 3 and 4 are super lore heavy. Any other game series I wouldn't care about lore but Kiseki has me interested in any little tidbits I can get.

    I do have some things I wonder which is more about possible character interactions.

    I would think this would be a given, but is there much interaction between Olivert and the Steel Maiden (I am blanking on her name)? I would think given her connection with Dreichels it would be something that happens, but with so much going on I could see it not happening as well. I know they aren't playable, but how much presence does Kloe and Scherazard have in 4? I believe I heard Kloe is in it very briefly.
     

Share This Page