Ask Us About Kiseki

Discussion in 'The Legend of Heroes Series' started by omgfloofy, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. Vizardlorde

    Vizardlorde Member

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    Did Rinnon's mother succeed and get Kitty married to her son?
     
  2. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    And you think those instances I mentioned are the "exceptions"? From Renne's experiences, there was an entire ring of human traffickers at work, and she was hardly the only victim (notwithstanding her hallucinations, we know that she was a victim of a larger organization since it's one that Joshua and Lowe destroyed). Tio was not the only person to be experimented on, she was just one of those that actually survived the experience. Aina's uncle hired jaegers to try to steal her inheritance in full awareness that he was breaking the law on several counts, and it's outright noted that he's not the only one who has tried to use jaegers in Liberl, the country where they're outright banned, to make plays for wealth or power. I'm not the one in denial about the fact that Zemuria can be just as ugly as the real world. Every evil that we've seen in the real world, Zemurians have shown themselves to be equally capable of. And it's recognized as an evil in-universe as well, it's not like they simply accept it as something that can't change, much as we in the real world don't just accept evil being done and shrug (or perhaps we do, that one's still something of a tossup, though historically people eventually get their act together). The very reactions by the characters indicate that they have a similar ethical and moral baseline to us, a baseline that was established from things actually happening in their world. Are they common? Of course bloody not, but they're no less uncommon in Zemuria than they have been at similar points in our own history. There are still slums, there's still things like prostitution (it's mentioned outright that traveling circuses like the one Scherzard was part of tended to supplement their earnings that way and hers was an exception in refusing to do so, and were deep in debt as a consequence), there're still things like outright slavery. There's racism, there's persecution, there's war. There's conflict rooted in the very nature of human beings, because Falcom created a world populated by actual people. The people that we play as, the majority of the characters in our party, are nice people. But even they have scars from their past, and proportionally it's something like 50/50 whether they've suffered personal tragedies caused by evils committed by other people. You say there are countless other NPCs we haven't met. How many of those do you think have similar stories of pain and suffering, if we actually went to places that aren't as nice as Liberl, or Crossbell, or even Erebonia? What if instead of playing as bracers or students or ex-jaegers, we played as active jaegers, or enforcers, or people whose lives are front and center in the darker parts of society? Who deal with on a more or less daily basis the cruelty that their fellow people are capable of? Is that going to then paint the entire Zemurian world as grimdark? No, because there's an entirely different side that we would not have seen, much as with the current set of characters their usual interaction is with people whom don't engage with the seedier parts of the world. But Zemuria is as imperfect as the real world, and to try to deny that is basically ignoring all of the backstory that's in place to make abundantly clear that there is a dark underbelly, and one as vicious as any other in real world history. Zemuria is no better, and for the most part, no worse than the real world. It's simply different.

    The order to execute Weissman came from the top, considering Kevin was issued with a salt pale bolt to carry it out. So either Ein herself or the head of the church. And why do any of them have to 'like' doing something to be willing to do it? You're the one that's claiming Osborne 'dislikes' all of the death he's caused, but that sure hasn't stopped him from carrying through with every one of his schemes regardless of the bodycount that's been racked up. And if the church really is going to be throwing in, if Weissman was dangerous enough to warrant a salt pale bolt, what are the odds that they would consider Osborne to be less dangerous and thus warrant lesser means? Especially after seeing him come back from the dead once already.

    My expectations of the relative force differential is based on what Falcom themselves have presented. They're the ones that established that Ariarnhod is apparently one of it not the most powerful warriors alive. All the SSS managed to do with their combined might was to break her helmet, they didn't actually even hurt her. And considering that it's noted Lowe routinely got his ass handed to him by her, and we saw how strong he can be relative to the likes of Estelle and co, the expectation for Arianrhod is therefore higher. And if McBurn is supposed to be the most powerful enforcer, which arguably puts him on a tier above Lowe, to the point that a divine knight, something drawing powers from Sept-Terrions, is something he thinks he can take, the differential between him and pretty much everyone else should have been orders of magnitude, and not something you make up in just a year or two, even with the entirety of Class VII combined.

    Similarly with Osborne, we're told over and over again that he's a master strategist whom has been able to outmaenvuer Ouroboros itself, the same people whom have managed to outgambit everyone else that they've fought. And not just in the conventional sense of the chancellor winning a battle at the cost of losing ground in the greater war, for the first time ever someone has won both tactical and strategic victories against the society. If he is that good, if he is capable of dealing with the level of threats that the society's anguises and enforcers represent, and doing so with just the resources of the Erebonian state and the Black Workshop, how are those resources also not sufficient to deal with Class VII? After all, the very same tactics that you claim Class VII could employ against Osborne, the society is also capable of doing the same. Teleportation? They have that, and arguably better than what Emma can manage, since it seems to be standard equipment as far as their operatives are concerned instead of requiring a dedicated mage. Stealth? It was noted in Sky SC that Ouroboros' airships were invisible to radar. Raw firepower? The society brought out how many second generation Aions in CS3, on top of all the jaegers, enforcers, and anguises? All of that Osborne has to be prepared to face when the society tries to knife him in the back. If he doesn't have countermeasures in place, he's already screwed even without Class VII entering the picture. At which point, there's not much of a story to tell in CS4. And this all assumes Class VII can muster the firepower necessary to take down Osborne himself without having it diverted to deal with all of the roadblocks he'd throw in their way.

    Power levels in Kiseki are to be frank annoyingly incoherent and tend to be based on what the plot requires more than any actual consistency. Combined with how often the "bad guys" let the "good guys" walk away, or refrain from finishing the job, we rarely see the full extent of what someone is actually capable of because they're so rarely pushed to extremes. Case in point, Renne's Pater-Mater was noted as being able to flatten Grancel Castle when fired at full power. We've seen the size of that structure. Any person that got hit with that cannon would be flat out dead, and it's not like Renne didn't have the option of using the cannon against Estelle and co due to range considerations, she was preparing to do just that at the tower she was guarding before, hey, perfect timing, her mission was over. Similarly the Aions in Crossbell were noted as having taken out entire divisions and tanking railway gun shots. But they're fought on foot? And you actually win? I mean, sure, I can see a dominion like Kevin pulling it off, but the SSS had no business even attempting it. And this discrepancy gets even worse in CS3 with the second-gen Aions. If Falcom can't keep the respective power levels consistent, I'm not sure I feel any particular sense of achievement in seeing Class VII fight their way through all these obstacles, especially when with the power that has been demonstrated in other places, plus the supposed intelligence of the people wielding them, the tactics that the class uses should flat out not work. We're assuming after all that Osborne and his faction aren't full of idiots that can't come up with countermeasures for threats they can see a mile away, and let's not kid ourselves, the cards that Class VII holds, the chancellor likely knows most if not all of them outright. Osborne will go down, by Class VII's collective hand, certainly. Will they actually earn that victory? So far the info coming out of CS3 is not giving me confidence that they do, and it's because Falcom has given Osborne enough tools and information, and enough of a reputation, that the guy shouldn't be making the sort of mistakes that would give Class VII an opening to hit him with.

    But let's ignore whether Falcom has done a good job or not justifying Class VII's eventual victory, since there's obviously a perception difference between what each of us think they've accomplished. The way that the confrontation itself is headed is fairly obvious, the only question is how tangled the battlelines will be when everyone throws down. The assumption has been that Class VII will have the support of the church and the Hexen clan, of that I don't have any disagreements with, though there is a lingering question of how openly either would be willing to move, and whether the two have any sort of ulterior motives. Ouroboros is also noted as going to make a play of their own, which while Osborne is still standing gives them and Class VII a mutual enemy, so their actions may "help" in the sense that it distracts or weakens Osborne's position. With the society however we know they have an ulterior motive and they'll execute a plan of their own when they consider the opportunity ripe. The only real question here is whether that happens before or after Osborne is down, and when it kicks off, who is going to get screwed in the process, if not because of the society actively seeking to mess with someone, then from the collateral damage of trying to stop them, because you know that some effort will have to be made to not let Ouroboros get away with two Sept-Terrions, regardless of if the effort succeeds or not. Anyway, with this balance of forces, I can certainly see how even Osborne would be under pressure, but what this amounts to is that one man is requiring basically every other major power in Zemuria to pile on to take him down, which is mildly impressive (and begs the question of whether in the long run it wouldn't be better to just side with him outright since he has been, you know, winning). No way can this be just a surgical strike, there are simply too many moving pieces. The amount of resources that both sides (I'm simplifying by shoving the society into the anti-Osborne camp) possess and can bring to bear, simply moving it anywhere should cause fallout, never mind the main event itself. And if you think the imperial army is going to refuse to engage an enemy just because they're outmatched, then you're seriously selling them short. It doesn't really matter if they can or cannot stop Class VII, if they're issued orders to fight, and they're given reason to believe that what they're doing is the right thing, they will fight, because from their perspective, it's their nation that they're defending and that's something they'd be willing to sacrifice their lives for. Even if they lose, literally every second that they can bog down Class VII and their allies plays to Osborne's advantage. And if the chancellor thinks that spending those lives is necessary, well, we already know he's ruthlessly pragmatic, so he'll do it.

    But even taking Osborne down does not in and of itself solve everything in Erebonia. His powerbase will still exist, unless it's somehow been completely dismantled, and not all parts of it are going to just line up and accept the new order afterward. The nobility will certainly see the death of their most hated political adversary as an opportunity to try to reassert their prerogatives, and it's not like there's a lot of goodwill on either side to reach a mutually acceptable accommodation. And the simple fact that Osborne needs to die, as several of you seem to believe, and which I agree with, also causes a problem. If the truth of his actions, the explanation for why he needed to die, was made public, that would touch off a massive political firestorm within Erebonia and beyond. And to avoid that, all parties involved are going to have to lie through their teeth, which carries with it all sorts of other complications. Assuming they can get Cedric to keep his mouth shut and not whine about losing his shiny new divine knight. That kid is reminding me a bit too much of the Suzaku archetype that's way too popular in Japan.
     
  3. Ghaleon

    Ghaleon Active Member

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    I thought she did but I can't recall the specifics since that's a fairly side...thing.. not even a side quest, just a side...lore?

    Pretty shameful too because I found that whole side-sub-plot thing interesting myself...There's just too much to remember for this decrepit old brain. I can't wait to replay the entire series out once zero/azure come out unofficially and/or otherwise.
     
  4. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    Question regarding the Church. Have we ever gotten a completely unambiguous statement from persons of authority within the Church hierarchy that Ouroboros getting the Sept-Terrions would be a bad thing?
     
  5. Gu4n

    Gu4n Member

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    No. It also doesn't look like they're interesting in retrieving them themselves. They just want to maintain the status quo.
     
  6. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    Followup.

    Does that mean the assistance Kevin lent in Crossbell was more incidental than anything else? That similar to the Liber Ark incident, he wasn't there to deal with Ouroboros' acquisition of a Sept-Terrion but on other Church business?
     
  7. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    Two questions regarding things from CS3.

    Do we know what Alberich wanted from the Reinford Group that warranted him spending the time and effort to seduce and marry Irina? Cause I'm really struggling to imagine what tech the Reinford Group might have possessed that his Black Workshop couldn't have duplicated with much less effort.

    What was Siegfried's basic personality like while his memories were gone?
     
  8. Marx-93

    Marx-93 Active Member

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    It's not said explicitly, but it's implied he wanted for the Soldats to be mass-produced in big quantities and used extensively. He also said that he was designing weapons and giving them to jaegers and soldiers to see them tested, and we also know the Magic Knights were the Gnomes doing. Now, the reason it's also not explained, but it seems evident to me he was trying to perfect the OZ and likely further weapons for Divine Knights (or to use against Divine Knights). On that note, some small things we see in Sen III (mentions of a hidden Archaism factory separated from the 13 Factories for example) and the list of stuff we've seen from them , makes me think the factories seem to be more focused on individual production than purely mass-production; i.e. in a way they seem closer to Labs than normal Factories

    On Siegfried, he had basically 10 lines, but he was curt and distant. It's not like he was completely different from Crow though, just think C without his melodramatic flair (and most of the later came from the suit)
     
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  9. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    The problem with that objective is it's stated that the soldats aren't being built at Reinford, but at some other location in the west. I can see a lot of ways in which his time at Reinford might have advanced that goal, but not in a way that's easily reconciled with the wording that's currently used to describe why he seduced Irina.

    What would be amusing is what would happen if Irina met up with him again. Assuming she knows or has learned his true nature, I can't imagine him getting off more lightly than Rogner.
     
  10. Marx-93

    Marx-93 Active Member

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    Take into account that Francis 'dying' wasn't in the plan. He wanted to introduce the Soldats 10 years earlier basically. So whatever ended up going on with the Soldats he lost a lot of control the moment he died.

    Actually Irina knows he's alive. After he shows up she basically say she was sure she would come back some time, but considering how she says it (coldly) and the moment she does (Courageous exploding) it's implied she knew there was something with Francis and that it wasn't good. It was her that made the contract with Sharon that she would serve until 'Francis returned'.
     
  11. nivora

    nivora Active Member

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    I am not sure if it was sen1 or 2 but i will assume it was sen2 that revealed that the soldats where produced in the fifth division, the unofficial sister branch of the first division which is openly run by the noble faction. That this division might be run outside of Roer definitely is possible. It also is implied that while Irina does not have as firm of a hold on all divisions than most people assume. Hence there are divisions that openly are pro-reformist and pro-noble faction.
     
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  12. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    We're told outright in CS2 that in sorting through Reinford's affairs there's a mysterious fifth division, of which there is not much information thereof. It was always presumed that 'fifth division' was a euphemism for the Black Workshop, and is one of the reasons the Black Workshop's location is presumed to be in western Erebonia.

    If Franz/Alberich's intention was to introduce soldats earlier (and that really does beg the question of why, the soldats while interesting are not so superior a war machine that they provide a decisive advantage in battle, conventional tactics are sufficient to neutralize most of the advantages they offer), the wording for what he "wanted" from Reinford on the kiseki wiki at least causes a slight dissonance. By virtue of how way more advanced the Black Workshop's tech is from the rest of Zemuria, the notion of him infiltrating Reinford for Reinford's tech sounds more than a bit odd. If he said he joined in order to make use of Reinford's resources as a company, that would make a lot more sense. In that case however the tech transfer would be going the other way, from Alberich to Reinford, since he'd have to upgrade Reinford's tech base to be able to create the things he needs.

    So Irina didn't falcon punch Alberich when she met him? Pity, seems like a missed opportunity.
     
  13. Marx-93

    Marx-93 Active Member

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    I'm just gonna go ahead and say that the fifth division is not mentioned at all in Sen III. Whatever that means.

    Alberich also helped with Magic Knights remember. He is not interested in the Soldats as war machines in the least, that much is canon. I believe he merely sees them as 'something similar to Divine Knights', something which he could test weapons and technologies and see how they were used in wars in order to get more ideas.

    The Kiseki wiki says he wanted 'knowledge and technology' from Reinford, but I think it was meant more in a general 'mass-production' way than anything else. At least I don't remember it ever being mentioned like that the game, though I'm not super-sure. @omgfloofy maybe has a screenshot with the proper wording? Alberich did have to learn about modern orbments (they likely have their kinks from Ancient ones), but he learnt from Schmidt, and I don't think Reinford had anything in the technology department Schmidt didn't.

    Irina didn't 'exactly meet Alberich. They just see the Courageous blow up, and Schmidt (who is hinted was suspecting Francis was alive all along since the Soldat designs reappeared) asked if she 'had realized he was alive', to which she answered that she 'knew from the beginning' (and 2 extra lines to make the audience clear that 'him' was Francis).
     
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  14. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    @omgfloofy Do you have the source for where Falcom said they had sketched out the overall Kiseki series all the way back during the development of Sky?

    And to clarify, I don't mean in discussion of the CS subseries' development, but in interviews prior to that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  15. omgfloofy

    omgfloofy Well-Known Member

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    @Marx-93: I don't have a screenshot on hand. It's been a few months, unfortunately. and I've had a long week that's left me exhausted.

    @zwabbit: I don't remember off the top of my head, but it was definitely one of Kondo's interviews. I'll look around for it when I have the chance again.
     
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  16. zwabbit

    zwabbit Active Member

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    Hope you're able to unwind properly this weekend.
     
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  17. Omage_X

    Omage_X Active Member

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    Quick question but since we know Sen IV is the last game in the Erebonia arc and the next arc might be Calvard do you guys see Falcom dropping systems like the Divine knight battles ? for something else ? while I haven't played Sen III I feel like there is lot of untapped potential in that gameplay mechanic but ultimately I could 100% understand if they want too.
     
  18. LrdDimwit

    LrdDimwit Member

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    I haven't actually played Sen 3. But if
    the Divine Knights turn out to be pieces of a Sept-Terrion
    - which seems to be the most likely direction they're planning to go - then it is highly unlikely Divine Knights themselves will feature in post-Erebonia arcs.
    The Sept-Terrion are the series-wide MacGuffin, after all. Ouroboros' whole plan is to get their hands on all seven. That basically means something has to happen with the Sept-Terrion in Erebonia by the end of the Cold Steel arc. And if the DKs are pieces of it, then they have to go away as part of the story.

    That doesn't mean that something like Divine Knight battles won't be in future arcs. But it does mean that - if the story develops in the way that seems like the logical place for it to go - the Divine Knights themselves likely won't be around anymore. Ultimately it probably depends on whether Falcom feels like the Divine Knight battles were popular or made the games more fun. If they think the DK fights were popular and added something they liked to the series, they'll probably find a way to work in something similar in the future. If not, they'll likely drop it like a hot potato.
     
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  19. Omage_X

    Omage_X Active Member

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    @LrdDimwit how was the overall reaction to the gameplay been in japan ?
     
  20. LrdDimwit

    LrdDimwit Member

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    I don't know. My Japanese isn't good enough to follow Japanese fandom. (That's why I haven't played Sen 3 yet :)
     
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